User talk:SeanWheeler/Link (Super Smash Bros.)

Deletion
Read our non-Sonic pages policy. This is clearly permitted. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 00:48, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

"This is primarily a Sonic wiki, but we permit a small number of non-Sonic characters to have pages. Such characters must have appeared in at least two games, two comic books, or two episodes of a television show in which Sonic was a main character. Cameo appearances do not qualify as appearances. This includes crossover games, comics, and television shows, but excludes those in which Sonic merely made cameo appearances."

What I interpret from this is that Sonic has to be featured or be the central of the cross-over series. Sonic is merely an additional playable character in Smash Bros. It has no effect on the game besides having him to be playable character, and I do want to stress on the fact that it says Sonic has to be main character, which he isn't in Smash Bros. Characters like Link have zero relation to the franchise. Any interaction of Sonic and these characters are simply gameplay footage rather than actual interaction.--SlugDrones • (Contact) 18:07, October 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 18:10, October 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Now I hope we can gather more opinions.--SlugDrones • (Contact) 18:13, October 4, 2013 (UTC)

All of the fighters are featured. They are not cameos. Of all of the characters in Smash Bros., can you find one identified as the sole main character? I can't. Mario may be the main mascot of Nintendo, but Pokémon is more heavily represented with all of those Pokémon from Poké Balls acting like assist trophies. And in the Subspace Emissary, Mario's not playable in every level. In fact, you can play through the Subspace Emissary without once playing as Mario (as he was always on a team). It was a very big deal when Sonic made it to Brawl, and he's the only Smash 4 veteran with his own trailer. I play as Sonic a lot in Brawl. He may have been a deus ex machina but he was one of the heroes to take down the main antagonist Tabuu. At least he made it in the Subspace and not become a post-story boss fight like Toon Link, Jigglypuff and Wolf. And before the World's Collide event by Archie, the rule was playable appearances with Sonic, and I think that might have been on the author's mind that playable characters are usually main characters. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:25, October 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * But Sonic is still only a playable character. Nintendo characters like Mario, Fox, Link, Samus and Pikachu are featured in everything related to Smash Bros, making them the central characters. Link has no interaction with Sonic. Everything written in that article is completely unrelated to the Sonic franchise.
 * As for playable characters, the rule was specifying videogames. But it turns out that non-playable crossovers can have interaction with Sonic. It shouldn't matter. Link has nothing to do with the franchise, it just so happens that they are in two games together.--SlugDrones • (Contact) 05:42, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * What makes a character in SBB a main character? Is it a veteran character? A character owned by Masahiro Sakurai? A Nintendo character?


 * If any character, should be considered main, they should all be considered main. There is no dominant series in SSB. While the Mario series has the most characters, that doesn't make Mario and Luigi main SSB characters. Every character that has been chosen to be on the roster should be considered main. Should it seem right for developers to label 26 characters main and 24 characters no main?


 * No character should be treated above another. No special treatment is required. All characters that are put in SSB are placed in the game by professionals. I don't think they would put main characters and other characters in a Cross-Over. -- Murphyshane -  熱! Don't click here   09:21, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Central characters and superiority are unrelated things.--SlugDrones • (Contact) 10:04, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's not what I was trying to say. I'm saying that if SSB is a cross-over of different series, how can there be central characters? A central character would have to be from a main series. How can a division of central characters be organized? Define "Central". I'm saying that there is no way of labeling a character "central" or "main". -- Murphyshane -  熱! Don't click here   12:34, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * In Smash Bros, the central would be Nintendo characters. Particularly the ones featured, advertised and the ones that have to be in the game no matter what. Sonic does not share the same importance as these characters do. It is only Nintendo characters that represent Smash Bros. Can be done without third-party characters.
 * I may be incorrect to you, but that does not change the fact that Link has no relation to the Sonic franchise. Having this article here is useless.--SlugDrones • (Contact) 17:11, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sonic has a trailer for each game. Even the new one where all the other veterans only got confirmed by site updates. SeanWheeler (talk) 17:50, October 5, 2013 (UTC)

When considering "main" characters in cross-over games, I think things to consider are: I'm not familiar with the games in question. Can someone chip in with answers to these questions? -- Supermorff (talk) 19:58, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Is the character playable from the start of the game (meaning they would almost certainly be a main character), or unlocked?
 * Does the character appear in the game's story mode (if it has a story mode), even if the character is not being used by the player, e.g. in cutscenes?
 * Does the character appear prominently in promotional material for the game?


 * If we're talking about Brawl, then:

-- 'Murphyshane -  熱! Don't click here '  21:40, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Link is a starter, but Sonic must be unlocked.
 * Link appears decently early in the story. Sonic appears as a deus ex machina at the end of the game to stop the main villain.
 * Link is all over the promotional material, being the representative of what is likely Nintendo's 2nd biggest series. Sonic appears on the games blurb and appears on some promotional material, most notably this video Sean was talking about earlier.

EDIT CONFLICT
 * Sonic is unlocked in four different ways.
 * Play 200 Brawls
 * Beat Classic mode with 10 characters.
 * Play for 10 hours.
 * Get up to the Tabuu boss fight.
 * Sonic does appear in the story but as a deus ex machina. After you get through the Great Maze, there is a final confrontation with Tabuu. He tries to use his off waves to turn everyone into trophies, but a blue blur came out of nowhere broke Tabuu's wings. The blue blur landed on a mountain, and revealed himself as Sonic. Then the boss fight starts, and you get the option to play as him. As Sonic weakened Tabuu, and this is the one chance to play as him, Sonic's pretty much the hero that defeated the main villain of the game.
 * Yes, Sonic does appear in promotional material. He's in the intro, and on the back of the box. And in the instruction booklet he appears with Snake on a note about secret fighters. And the fighter Sonic isn't the only thing Sega related. There's the stage Green Hill Zone, the Assist Trophy Shadow the Hedgehog, the Green Hill background characters Tails, Knuckles and Silver, and a whole collection of trophies of Sonic characters such as Amy, Cream, Tails, Knuckles, Blaze, Jet and Silver, and a whole bunch of Sonic-related stickers. While Sonic may have been put in late in the game due to fan demand, that is still a lot of Sonic content in a Nintendo game. And since Sonic has been announced for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS only four months in development, that is a lot of time for Nintendo to put Sega's stuff in (a whole year to do it). And fans want another Sonic fighter in the new game, and since it worked for Brawl, maybe there could be a character like Tails in the new Smash Bros. It was a big deal when Sonic was announced. He even got his own trailer for Super Smash Bros. 4 despite being a veteran. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:49, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * And at least he did make it to the story. Three characters: Jigglypuff, Wolf, and Toon Link were excluded from the adventure and had to be fought in secret areas after Tabuu to have them join your team. Sonic fought Tabuu. SeanWheeler (talk) 22:11, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * I just made a Subspace section on Link's page and I'm planning to do that to the other Smash characters. There is a special section where the character sees Sonic and helps him fight Tabuu. At least that Subspace section with Sonic helps make the article somewhat more related to Sonic. SeanWheeler (talk) 00:16, October 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the answers to Supermorff's questions proves my point.
 * Sonic is unlocked pretty late in the game
 * Sonic appears very briefly in the story mode.
 * Sonic does not appear prominently in the promotional material for the game.
 * Sonic is therefore not a main character. Characters like Link have absolutely no relation to the Sonic franchise. Having this article here is pointless. Why is this so hard for you to understand?--SlugDrones • (Contact) 06:39, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Per Drones. This page should be deleted. -- 06:45, October 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sonic is featured prominently in promotional material! He appears in the intro, the back of the box, a note in the instruction manual, and on Smash Bros. DOJO, he and Snake were the only unlockable characters not in the Secret section. He has his own trailer for both Brawl and Smash 4. The only other character in Brawl to get his own trailer is Snake and the other characters who got their own trailer in Smash 4 is the Newcomers. While Sonic may appeared late in the story, it might have different if Sega agreed earlier, because most of the Subspace Emissary was completed before Sonic's announcement. At least he didn't meet the fate of Toon Link, Jigglypuff, and Wolf. And he was in All-Stars games with Sega. How is a Nintendo All-Stars different? There is no central characters in Smash Bros. And with Sonic confirmed for Smash 4 four months in development, there would be more time to extend Sonic's role. While he may have only appeared in one cutscene in the game, he defeated the main villain. And the villain appeared late in the story too. And there are four ways to unlock Sonic, while the other unlockable characters have three ways. The easiest way to unlock Sonic is to play Classic Mode ten times on Easy. We have a full Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U. Cameos for Sonic are listed in the Sonic Cameos page. If we move the Smash Bros game pages to the cameos page, it would be way too big to fit on that chart. Sonic may have a big cameo in Wreck-It Ralph, but that is because Disney said it was a cameo. Nintendo did not say anything about any fighters being cameos. Dispite Sonic's small role, he's still a main character. And I have another idea to Sonicfy the articles, let's have a section giving advice to Sonic players on how to defeat the subject. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:17, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Per Sean. The page should stay. -- 'Murphyshane -  熱! Don't click here '  14:39, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. And we have a whole year to Sonicfy the Smash characters. SeanWheeler (talk) 14:43, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

No. The page breaks policy. -- 20:57, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree. Although I would like to see this page stay, we can't keep it. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 21:07, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't break policy if Link made two playable appearances with Sonic. And Sonic's appearance in Super Smash Bros. was not a cameo. The cameos of Super Smash Bros. are trophies, stickers, and stage backgrounds. Sonic was a playable fighter, which is a big role for Super Smashe Bros. Unlike Wreck-it Ralph where Sonic was inserted in certain scenes and Wreck-It Ralph himself was the star, you get to play as Sonic in Super Smash Bros. with equal spotlight of the other fighters. Super Smash Bros. have no defined protagonist. The whole roster are the featured characters. And at least Sonic defeated Tabuu at the end. Defeating the main villain is a very major role. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:11, October 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because Sonic was playable doesn't mean it's a main appearance. However, your last point is valid. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 21:19, October 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yep, of course defeating Tabuu is valid, and the whole representation I told you on your talk page. SeanWheeler (talk) 21:50, October 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is all irrelevant and overly persnickety. You're putting too much focus on minor details. Please elaborate (as in give valid reasons) why these pages are a necessity for us? We are not an in-depth Super Smash Bros. encyclopedia. If you are creating pages on these characters, you might as well create another Smash wiki. We don't need these pages. What we do need on our Smash pages are concise explanations about the series and how the Sonic series plays a role in the series. We most certainly do NOT need these pages. May I remind you that this is a SONIC wiki, not a Smash one. Our readers aren't going to benefit from these articles. -- 02:58, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

When it comes to a 2.5D Brawler game like SSB, there is no such thing as main characters. There is just playable and non-playable. Sonic is playable, Link is playable. I believe this page should stay. RiderJones (talk) 03:12, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Bullet. This page should be deleted since this isn't a Smash Wiki, it's a Sonic wiki. --- 03:17, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

We're trying the best we can to write it from the Sonic perspective, such as strategies on how Sonic players can beat them, trivia comparing the character to Sonic, etc. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:34, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

I'm seeing some people torn between "The rules say X, therefore Y" and "This isn't Sonic, therefore Z regardless of what the rules say". Both of these are sort of backwards. If the rules don't do what we want as a community, change them. If people think that the rules are permitting non-Sonic pages that we don't want to keep (for example), suggest a rewording that clarifies the position on a site discussion. Arguments like this on the talk page of one page are not productive in the long run. -- Supermorff (talk) 13:35, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't want Nintendo haters to change the rules just for this. SeanWheeler (talk) 13:42, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Every trial needs a jury (the SNN community). We will be voting from now until Saturday. Why Saturday? Because every 12th of each month reveals a new veteran. If the prosecution wins (the people wanting to delete the pages (I'm not offending anyone, I'm just making a comparison)), the Super Smash Bros. characters will be deleted, Super Smash Bros. Brawl and it's sequel will be deleted and information will be moved to the Sonic Cameos page. If the defense wins (the people wanting to keep the pages), the pages will be kept and the new character on Saturday as long as he/she was in Brawl will be created. We have until Saturday. Sign your name and give a reason why you want them deleted/kept. Any more comments will go to the comments section. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:02, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Delete

 * 1) -- 19:39, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) -- 19:47, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Keep

 * 1) Sonic was playable in two Super Smash Bros. games. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:02, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) No one has the right to delete a page with valuable information, this page should stay. RiderJones (talk) 19:52, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) Per above. This could still be of use to Sonic fans who know little of other series. -- Murphyshane -  熱! Don't click here   21:59, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22:01, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) --IceSeason101 (talk) 23:09, October 8, 2013 (UTC) What Sean and Murphyshane said.

Comments
This is where the discussion can continue. SeanWheeler (talk) 15:02, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sean, don't say "Nintendo haters". It implies that you think that everyone agreed on this pages' deketion did so soley for biased reasons. Also, I believe the discussion was about the character pages, but the pages on the games themselves, beside Sonic Cameos wouldn't be an appropriate place to put such information.  Myself  123  15:58, October 8, 2013 (UTC)