Talk:Sonic the Hedgehog series/Archive 2

Actually Sonic Rush, and Rivals are canon because of Blaze and Silver appearing in the main series games. David Bear (talk) 02:36, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Locked?
Is this page locked? Because anyone could just edit this page and put false information about the series. 16:50, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Just like how anyone could edit any page and put false information.  Myself  123  16:53, May 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * But this is a big page. :/ 16:55, May 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * That doesn't make any difference.  Myself  123  16:58, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Assume good faith, Blue. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 16:59, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, then. :/ 17:00, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

An idea to make the series better. kick all the characters till there is only Sonic and eggman, and return to the story of a good guy trying to trump the bad guy. In 3d.

06 Lover Neo

the biggest and queen of all SonAmy fans (talk) 18:26, June 27, 2013 (UTC) It is hard to read in Japanese, without the English.

Planetary Problems Saga page?
I think I would like to propose that we make a saga page for each era in the sonic series, starting with the Planetary Problems saga, cause there is so much that we hardly have any Idea how to keep track of the whole timeline. Justin Holland (talk) 22:18, August 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem is that these are just fan terms, not official. It's more or less acceptable as a heading on a page, but not as the title of a page. -- Supermorff (talk) 19:37, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Amy
Are we sure that Sonic CD happened AFTER Sonic R? Considering CD is the first time Sonic and Amy meet, I can't see how this is possible. Plus, it's claimed she fell in love with Sonic after he rescued her. Other than CD, the pre-Adventure games she appeared in are R, the Fighters and the Drift games - none of which she needed to be rescued in. Therefore, this most likely happened in CD. Ffy671 (talk) 10:15, October 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think Sonic Drift,Sonic the fighters and Sonic R was before.But I thought they hadn't met in those games.Then they met in Sonic CD but they parted ways as seen at the end of the game and the events of Sonic Adventure happened four years later.There,Amy was talking about Sonic when a bird flew into her face and she found Sonic reuniting them...That's a huge coincidence~Cyclonestar


 * I just think that Sonic CD should take place after Sonic 3&Knuckles, but before anything else.Ffy671 (talk) 16:22, October 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sonic CD is supposed to be the first appearance of Metal Sonic, so Sonic CD would have to take place before Sonic R or Sonic the Fighters. Also, Amy had also fallen in love with Sonic from long before. Her entire reason for coming to Little Planet was because her Tarot Cards told her she had a destined encounter with Sonic. I think Sonic CD takes place before Sonic 2, and Sonic the Fighters, Sonic R, Triple Trouble, and Knuckles' Chaotix takes place after. Thesoniczone11 (talk) 20:39, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Sonic Riders series
The Sonic chronology seems to have placed the Sonic Riders series in an interesting place, separating the series and placing them in order of release date.

I propose that the Sonic Riders series takes place at some point more in the future than any other Sonic game. And here are some reasons why I believe this.

1. During Sonic Generations, Sonic was sent to the White Space by the Time Eater, along with the people who were attending his party. However, many other people who were not attending his party were also sent to the White Space, namely Metal Sonic, Shadow and Silver, with Silver even being teleported from another time period. This leads me to believe that the White Space that Sonic is in is populated by people who were important to him at the time of his abduction. With that in mind, no one in the Babylon Rogues appears in this game apart from Jet's placement in the trophy room and a cameo on a sign in Speed Highway. If Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are rivals of Jet, Wave and Storm, wouldn't you assume that they would be in the White Space as well, like Shadow and Silver, Sonic's other rivals, are? This leads me to believe that Sonic has not yet met Jet, and is therefore not important enough to be in the White Space, meaning the Sonic Riders series has not yet occurred.

2. The Extreme Gear are only present in the Sonic Riders series. Assuming that the games are not in the future, why does Sonic and Co. use such apparently outdated methods of transportation? I understand that there are some people who are not convinced that Sonic runs slower than an Extreme Gear, and I understand that. But wouldn't an Extreme Gear be faster transportation than Tails Tornado? 200 - 400 mph seems a little out of the capabilities of a bi-plane, even one build by Tails. After looking up bi-plane speeds, I found that some WWI bi-planes could reach 145 mph at top speeds, making an Extreme Gear seem like a faster choice. Also, if Eggman knew how to use an Extreme Gear, based on the speed of the chase at the beginning of Lost World, it appears as if it would be easier for him to escape in an Extreme Gear than his Egg Mobile. But no one is seen using an Extreme Gear, or even talking about them. This leads me to speculate that they did not exist at this time, and that they would be invented during the period inbetween the normal Sonic canon and the Sonic Riders series.

3. Many of the locales of the normal Sonic canon contain lush green wildernesses, including plains. However, in the Riders series, many of the playable locations are urban, futuristic cities that are not usually showcased in Sonic games. The exceptions to the urban landscapes are places that were probably preserved intentionally, such as ruins, jungles and other such beautiful locations. This leads me to believe that in between the normal Sonic canon and the Riders series, many unimportant locations, such as the field Amy and Knuckles are in during Lost World, or maybe even unimportant stages like Wave Ocean, were industrialized and that society advanced to create the urban, futuristic levels that are scattered though the Riders series.

That's my take on the placement of the Sonic Riders series. As for their placement in relation to each other, the games make it clear enough that they do occur chronologically, Riders, followed by Zero Gravity, followed by Free Riders. If you see any flaws in my logic, let me know, because I would be interested to see another take on this.

In conclusion, I believe that the Sonic Riders series should be placed after all notable games in the series, due to the fact that many things that occur in the series, i.e. the Babylon Rogues, the Extreme Gear and incredibly futuristic urban areas, are not present during the rest of the Sonic chronology.

ChazzzyF (talk) 02:29, December 8, 2013 (UTC)ChazzzyF

You have a good point.

 Myself  123  02:50, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Or perhaps the Babylon Rouges weren't deemed important enough to appear in the game.
 * 2) It's implied in the first Riders game that Extreme Gear has been around for a long time, plus Extreme Gear only seem to hover above the ground, so various versions of the Tornado would still be useful.
 * 3) The Riders series still have green areas, though I'll admit that some of the cities look much more futuristic than in other games.


 * 1. Some of the other main series characters who were deemed not important enough were characters who had not had major roles in a while, like Big and Omega. Meanwhile, Jet and the other Rogues have had incredibly important roles in their games, with Jet even being listed before Tails and Knuckles in the Free Riders opening cutscene. And Free Riders was a relatively recent game, coming out the same year as Colors.


 * 2. I admit, this is true, I forgot that they had been around for a long time. What I meant was that they had not yet been discovered by this point in time. And true, they may not cause the Tornado to be obselete. But, the fact that they are never mentioned or seen at all seems to be too coincidental. Also, humans can also use Extreme Gear, and Sonic never encounters any humans with an Extreme Gear either, even when he travels the world in Unleashed.


 * 3. True, there are green areas, but those green areas mainly consist of thick jungles or forests; areas that would be difficult to industrialize. Sonic usually seems to possess at least a few varying "Green Hill Zone-like" plains, like Emerald Hill, Splash Hill, Emerald Coast, Windy Hill, etc. But there isn't a single one in any of the Riders games.


 * ChazzzyF (talk) 19:12, December 8, 2013 (UTC)ChazzzyF


 * The Babylon Rogues are only important in the Riders games, so perhaps they were deemed not important enough to be in the game for that reason. Also, the characters in the white space are:
 * Sonic's friends who were at his party.
 * Characters who appear for rival battles.
 * Blaze the Cat, who is arguably more important than any of the Babylon Rogues.
 * Aside from being created a long time ago, there's the past generation of the Rogues; Wave is said to have taken over from one of her parents as mechanic.
 * True, but I'm not quite sure how open plains would make a good racing track.
 *  Myself  123  20:26, December 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1. Sure, the Rogues may not be as important as some of Sonic's other friends, but Jet is still one of Sonic's main rivals, the only character on Sonic's rivals list on his page (excluding Mario) to not be in the White Space. Sure, he may not have been important enough to Sega to include him, but his relationship with Sonic in the RIders series would make him important enough to Sonic to have him be there, if they knew each other at the time. I do agree that Blaze has a higher level of importance, but the Rogues aren't unimportant to Sonic.
 * 2. After their initial landing on Earth/Mobius, the Babylonians eventually scattered and merged with the existing population, except for a few, namely the current Rogues. The current Rogues held the secrets of the Extreme Gear. Plus, if the Extreme Gear were well known before Sonic Riders, I would feel as though Sonic would have already tried to use them. Since it is a new mode of transportation themed around speed, Sonic would have tried to learn how to use it to (quoting his likes section) "prove he's the fastest".
 * 3. True, while it may not be a good track for a racing game, it doesn't excuse the fact that they aren't there.
 * ChazzzyF (talk) 20:59, December 8, 2013 (UTC)ChazzzyF

Generations Celebrates the series as a whole even the Riders sub-series your points aren't valid the Riders series may very well take place in the future and Sonic hasn't met the Rouges yet also the odds of Jet showing up are slim because the fight against him would have to be on the Snowboards.

Sonamyfan is right, it's a spinoff and thus doesn't count as acceptable in Generations. There goes your first point. The second point is still strong, however. -- Shadowunleashed13 (talk) 21:03, December 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Jet may have one of the few rivals not to appear in the game, but there was no room for him, there are three rivals because there are three eras, and picking rivals that Sonic has actually fought or competed against as a matter or life and death, are more important than a rival from a spin-off game.
 * I doubt Sonic would've been eager to try the boards out, He prefers his own natural speed.
 * I think it does, if the characters aren't going to race in those areas, why bother showing them?
 *  Myself  123  21:07, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Once again the battle against him would have to be on Snowboards second their is no proof he likes his natural speed to much to use them he uses Snowboards all the time and official art have shown him riding bikes and skateboards as well he likes sports especial extreme sports like wing walking third cutscenes in Zero Gravity we see cutscenes in places that aren't the Race Tracks like the Rouges Airship or the Dessert surrounding the Meto Tech Tower.


 * What I meant was that Sonic wouldn't try Extreme Gear because of its speed, also, he wouldn't call himself the fastest thing alive if he didn't prefer his own speed and he would use bikes/skateboards/whatever much more if he preferred them over running. Also, that's not the point regarding cutscenes, I can't imagine how a big, open plain would fit into those cutscenes.  Myself  123  21:20, December 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * First Sonic likes sports and we never see him during downtime during the games second Sam Speed from Sonic X was know as the fastest till Sonic came even if he was useing cars and finaly play Zero Gravity or the first game thier are gaint desserts in the cutscenes during the games.


 * What has Sam Speed got to do with anything? Those deserts are next to the racetracks, the one in the first game is actually part of a racetrack.  Myself  123  21:27, December 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * He fits because he called himself the fastest before Sonic got there yet he used cars all the time to reach his high speeds second the desserts are wide open plains to just covered in sand showing the wide open plains can works and the first game showed that they would work as a race track to.


 * Sam Speed is completely irrelevant to this. Plus the open area in the desert is only used as part of the racetrack for a short time, the rest is in ruins.  Myself  123  21:33, December 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * No he's not he shows that you can call your selve something and still use things to help you do said thing second it still shows how it would work your the only one who has a problem like many times before at the moment thier are 3 who are all for it 1 that is in the middle and then you who is the only one wholy agiasn't and all you points have been debunked meaning that the 1 that is in the middles reason for being in the middle is no more so it 4 to 1 consensus and facts say there in the future.

What? This isn't a vote. Also, when Sam is talking about his speed, he referring to his speed in the car, when Sonic talks about his speed, he's talking about running. And how have all my points been debunked?  Myself  123  21:48, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't matter their both talking about how they are organic beings that have traveled faster then any other at that moment.Second yes it is the person brought it up to have people talk about it and go with the most popular opinion. and Third your points have been me and the other user that have brought this up have provided counter arguments to every thing you have said about this matter no matter how much you say we haven't we have.

Not at all: When Sam is talking about being the fastest, he's not saying "I'm the fastest on my feet." He's saying "I'm the fastest driver." When Sonic says he's the fastest, he's not saying "I'm the fastest on a snowboard." He's saying "I'm the fastest at running." Secondly, No, this isn't a vote, I've presented arguments that counter the original, which can affect people's opinions on this matter. Lastly, I still don't see how all my points have been debunked, the second point could go either way, but how has my first and third been debunked? I already pointed out how the Rogues may not have been important enough to be in Generations, and just because something isn't seen, doesn't mean it's not there.  Myself  123  22:07, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Once agian the first has been debunked the Riders games are a Sub-Series while Generations celbrates the series as a whole the main games get the most prioraty and all of the Rival Battles are iconic scenes from the main games and in the fact that the Fight would have had to ethier use the Snowboards or have code for Extreme Gear put in the games and it's clear why Jet didn't appaer even if they did take place back then and your third never held water in the first place as he said the green areas are most likely persvered for one reason or another and you justed admited you presented evdince to afect peoples opoion on the matter meaning it is indeed a vote meaning it's still 4 to 1 on this matter.

No, that's not what a vote is. ChazzzyF presented points why he thought the Riders series was set in the future, and I presented counterpoints, counterpoints that can affect a persons decisions on the matter. There is nothing you said in the first point debunks my first point, my first point was how the Rogues may not have been in the game because they were not important enough or simply because there's no room for them, and there isn't unless you remove arguably more important characters. The third reason you gave then is speculative, so it holds no water.  Myself  123  22:22, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Your third reason also holds no water and if it comes down to a person decisions then it is a vote Myself it has become clear at this point you don't support this and will say anything to get it not to happan something a adim shouldn't do and because it is a matter of how many pepole desied to support the change or not it is a vote in which your in the losing party of 4 to 1.

If both third reasons hold no water, then they're both invalid. This still is not a vote, do you see a voting section being erected? No, because this has yet to come to a vote. Again, points were brought forward to suggest that the Riders series was set in the future. I then presented counterarguments to those points, and an argument ensued. Don't make unfair accusations like that, I've been giving fair counterpoints, your statement that I will "say anything to get it not to happen" suggests that I've been going out of my way to prove I'm right, or that I'm ignoring facts, which I haven't as no facts have been given by either side.  Myself  123  22:37, December 8, 2013 (UTC)

Okay then I aplogize for my harsh acusations seeing as how this is never going to end this way let's set up a voting section sense my it's very esence this is a situation that needs a vote.

I've been gone for a little while and would like to address some things. I understand why, from a game designer standpoint, Jet and the Rogues weren't in Generations. There wasn't room for them and they aren't as important as some of the other characters. I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of Sonic's universe. From the perspective of Sonic, if Sonic and Jet were rivals, and Jet held recent significance to Sonic, Jet would have appeared in the White Space. It didn't happen due to game design, but, if Sonic and Jet haven't met yet, it rationalizes his absence from Sonic's perspective. Let's say you are in a room with your current best friend and your best friend 20 years from now, and asked which person you like more. To you, you are in a room with your best friend and, more than likely, a total stranger, and you would pick your current friend. That's what I mean. Sonic hasn't met Jet, and Jet is therefore not important enough to Sonic to be in the White Space. Also, if the Extreme Gear are such a prevalent cultural interest that they are the focus of attention at all times, recieving news time when Eggman announces the tournament and drawing crowds like a sporting event today would, it makes little sense to me that not one single person, including everyday humans like the ones in Unleashed, had ever seen or heard of them. Sure, I can accept that maybe there are green areas like the ones I brought up somewhere else off camera, but I feel that my other two reasons hold enough weight to be able to have this make sense. Sorry to seem pushy, I just wanted to bring up some points after my absence.

Also, I'm fairly sure that this is about game canon, and that Sam Speed has nothing to do with this, being only from the TV show.

ChazzzyF (talk) 17:04, December 9, 2013 (UTC)ChazzzyF

I think my first point still stands, that from a designer's standpoint, the Rouges aren't important enough especially considering that currently they've only appeared in spin-offs. Although Extreme Gear doesn't appear outside of the Riders games, I don't think the fact that no NPCs ever talk about them in Unleashed means they don't exist either.  Myself  123  15:12, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Chronology Proposals / Improvements
Hello, Sonic Wiki! While I believe the current system of "release date order unless game/manual story directly says otherwise" is the most objective approach to the timeline, there are a few things I'd like to say and hope to get further input on:

1) I didn't think that it would, but the placement of Sonic the Hedgehog 4 (and to a lesser extent, Sonic the Hedgehog CD) is bugging me slightly. Obviously, they cannot take place in release date order, with Sonic CD released between Sonic 2 & Sonic 3 and Sonic 4 intentionally taking place some point between Sonic CD and Sonic Adventure. Previously, Sonic 4 was placed just before Sonic Adventure -- Sonic CD was the end of the Classic Era and Sonic 4 was the beginning of the Modern Era based on the fact that Sonic Generations very strongly suggests that the redesigns signify the cast being slightly older, and the time between Little Planet leaving and returning with no major events in between would probably be sufficient to show a little age in the characters. That, and Metal Sonic has minimal problems appearing in titles he should be absent in.

However, I changed Sonic 4 to just after Sonic 3 & Knuckles based on the (now down) official website claiming in Dr. Eggman's profile that he lost the Master Emerald during his last encounter with Sonic, and on top of that its storyline section only leaves room for Sonic CD to take place after the first Sonic game. Now, the website made a few noticeable mistakes of its own (such as saying Sonic and Knuckles's storylines take place at the same time, plus numerous grammar and syntax errors, among other things), and Eggman's in-game profile via the help menu actually doesn't say anything about the Master Emerald or how much time has passed since Sonic 3 & Knuckles. So! With this in mind, what do you think is the best decision here?

A) Move Sonic 4 and Sonic CD to their previous spots, since it was more of a sensational or advertising statement and the age factor in Sonic Generations overrules anything some supplemental material might have said. Sonic CD can take place at the end of the Classic Era because there's technically nothing that officially says that Amy Rose and Metal Sonic first met Sonic in that game. That, and leaving them where they are not only inexplicably messes with the design/age link, but there's also an unusual amount of time between Sonic's first and second appearance on South Island if it's supposed to be where his home is located in these early games.

B) Move Sonic 4 back, and place Sonic CD after Sonic 3 & Knuckles (probably between SegaSonic the Hedgehog and Sonic Chaos). Amy and Metal Sonic's debut appearance should be honored as such. Note that Tails does appear in the original release of the game (with the Tornado to boot), which is hard to deny even if you try rationalizing it with "time travel shenanigans". The only reasonable way this can be so is if it takes place after Sonic 2. The only problem is Metal Sonic's potential appearances in titles in-between - are these to be considered "time travel shenanigans" thanks to Little Planet's nature?

C) Move Sonic 4 back, and leave Sonic CD where it is. I personally like this option the least because I feel it's only picking and choosing what to take from the same source, but I'm leaving it as a choice here nonetheless.

D) Leave both Sonic 4 & Sonic CD as-is, and don't ignore what the old official website once said.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a 100% way to fit these titles in without a little contradiction...

Second order of business!

2) The current timeline model (which I'll address in a moment) always acknowledged that anything not marked may not necessarily be thought as canon by modern developers, which is something based on statements by ArchangelUK, a former member of Sega who posted on the Sega of America forums. His word isn't final by any means (as things he considered non-canon have been referenced in mainstream titles after he left), but it gives insight on what Sega as a whole might think of the timeline (if they even give it any mind anymore), and he's probably the highest authority that stated as much as he did. Since everything discarded in one section eventually had just one thing in common (lack of storyline or explicitly out of universe), it's now the Miscellaneous section. Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood is the sole exception, as it's full of story and it's meant to take place within the game universe. I'm not completely sure why it is where it is other than the cliffhanger ending and the absence of Shade in future titles not making a perfectly seamless transition, but Sonic Unleashed (the next title) also starts with an unseen beginning, so it's not much of a stretch to put it back where it was (strictly remaining as an unmarked title), as being the odd one out without a clear and concise reason kind of lessens the purpose of the marks and the misc. section.

And lastly,

3) There might be a little confusion with the format of the timeline as it stands - it marks confirmed canon titles with asterisks and leaves everything else as ambiguous canon, but I'm starting to think that's not enough. Maybe they need to be more clearly bolded instead, but I think another alternative would be to split this timeline in two parts - rather than Classic Era and Modern Era, perhaps change it to the Core Timeline and "Expanded Universe". The core timeline can be solely titles that are already marked, and expanded universe can be the current timeline without the asterisk distinction. The only problem is that not everyone agrees what's considered part of the core timeline - ArchangelUK certainly thought that everything that's not marked in this list is completely non-canon, but he also thought that the Classic Era didn't happen as we saw it and that things he deemed non-canon would never show up again (which were concepts both immediately shot down with Sonic Generations). Think about it: do you count Sonic 06, which had significant representation as a time-displaced element of Sonic Generations? How about games directly references in mainstream titles, like Sonic and the Secret Rings? Are you going to defend "side-titles" that formally introduce major characters, like Knuckles' Chaotix, Sonic Advance 2 and Sonic Rush? Etc.

So yes, any and all feedback is welcome! LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:14, February 3, 2014 (UTC)