Forum:Fanon Forums?

Should Fanon Forums like Forum:Neo-Sonic for example even be on this Wiki, especially since we have Sonic Fanon Wiki for Fanon Fourms and other Fanon stuff, leave a response if you agree (or disagree). Pacmansonic138 00:06, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Stuff like "Sonic Heroes 2" I say should be but I'm not sure about fan character ones. Spyro Sonic   2000  00:18, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Long term, I'd like for us to get rid of them. Happy to get rid of them sooner if people agree. -- Supermorff (talk) 00:34, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

@SpyroSonic I am NOT talking about User Pages with Fan Characters, I am talking about FANON FOURMS. Pacmansonic138 00:36, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with supermorff stuff like this should be on SFW (at least on user pages people) sonic icon 03:08, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Getting rid of Fanon forums
Okay, so the proposal on the table is, should we get rid of Fanon Forums? If necessary we can move them to SFW. I vote yes. -- Supermorff (talk) 11:12, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

I vote yes as well sonic icon 00:21, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. 01:07, April 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Get rid of them. I support their removal. -- 20:29, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Since I created this forum, then I say yes. Pacmansonic138 23:38, April 10, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, perhaps renamed "General" followed by question and Site Discusisons exclusive for that wiki. It will be nice for SFW to actually have a forum, even if it's all blogs these days.--Mystic Monkey is a proud MonoBook Wikian. 02:40, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, this seems to be generally accepted. I'm going to leave it a little while longer, then close the discussion. -- Supermorff (talk) 11:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Hold up. Would this involve fanon games on here and/or Roleplay forums? If so then I say no; these fanon forums have been here for years. Beyond the fact that SFW never uses forums and as such shouldn't have to in order to accommodate this wiki, people should be able to express and use their fandom without posting it on a different site with a completely different atmosphere and community. Me, Shelly, and many other older Users have made use of these forums to express our fan-made ideas. They should not be deleted. This wiki seems to be becoming more and more business-oriented in restricting fandom expression. How much farther is this going to go until it's restricted from the wiki entirely? Forums don't even count towards pagecount on the wiki and have no overt affect on our reputation, so what's the point in removing them?--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 02:29, April 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, it would include those. I'll address your points in order:
 * Yes, they've been here for years. They were a cop out when they were created, and now that there's a whole wiki for them they're just obsolete.
 * SFW doesn't have to use forums to accommodate this wiki. Once they've been moved, they can do whatever they want with them. Roleplay forums would be particularly easy to convert into SFW's roleplay namespace (I could use my new bot).
 * Why should people be able to express and use their fandom when that's not what this wiki is about?
 * Shelly's not here, and most of the forums are dead. The only fanon or roleplay forum that you have contributed to yourself in the last year (that is, adding content instead of reverting edits or fixing format) is Forum:Powder Snow, in which you had a conversation with Shelly. You could have done that anywhere. You don't need the forums.
 * I'm glad this wiki is becoming more "business-oriented". It is a good thing.
 * We're not restrcting fandom expression, we're just not providing a platform for it. Because that's SFW's mission statement, not ours.
 * The reputational effect is not overt only because the forums are dead and nobody uses them. What's the point in keeping them? -- Supermorff (talk) 12:37, April 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * "a different site with a completely different atmosphere and community"
 * As someone who keeps SNN and SFW on the same tab group on IE all day as well as I am on SFW, I can vouch that it's not really that entirely different. After all we perhaps have a percentage of members on SNN we are unaware of and they just help around. Yes I hate it when wikia autoregisters you on other Wikia sites just after leaving a small comment or minor edit or whatever, but with Forum:Fanon to SFW we could have stronger assosiation with SFW, after all it's pretty much a fan-counterpart of us. Here we usually have our userpage for fan articles followed by sub-userpage articles which is kinda unprofessional to me so encouraging SNN members to also be SFW members maybe a good deal for both wiki's. Not only will this move will strengthen assosisations between our two wiki's but it will be much more practical for those posting on the forums who want feedback attention and discussions on projects. For example Forum:Jezz of Time in which Akamia has to explain absolutely everything about his game followed staight by the discussion part. He would have an easier time if he just put the information on articles and give a few links. Discussion can continue on thread and article talk pages. Even on the few threads I made on fanon I make external wikia links to SFW (Forum:Mystic Monkey Adventure being a prime example, though overlooked on SNN) simply because it's easier than me having to write loads.--Mystic Monkey is a proud MonoBook Wikian. 17:35, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

And as someone who has spent at least a year as an admin on both SNN and SFW, and has been a member of both websites for almost three, I can tell you that in terms of community and interactions, they are quite different. SFW already has a great deal of issues on its plate, including keeping article requirements (yes, things got so bad fanon articles now have requirements on SFW), as well as dealing with the maturity of some of its members. Most members of SFW do not come onto or edit SNN, that I can assure you. This would not strengthen relations between the wikis; it would be SNN forcing its Users with fanon articles to dump them on SFW, saying "it's your problem now", forcing SFW users and admins to sift through all the new articles to make sure they meet requirements, as well as make sure these Users would know policies and rules. What's more, people with fanon on here still actually have a reason to contribute here, because they keep an eye on the place while talking with friends and fellow members of the community. We force them to go to SFW, at least one of two things will happen:
 * 1) SNN will lose members because people decide they want to take their fanon to SFW and don't wanna bother contributing because they can't express their fandom and creativity here, taking away activity from SNN.
 * 2) SNN Users use SFW as a dump site, dropping all their fanon crap on the wiki and only making use of it here on SNN, which is paramount to dumping SNN fanon issues into SFWs lap. People would still be rambling on about their fandom here, while SFW would have to deal with all the articles and pictures/recolors.

This would not help either wiki; it would simply hurt both of them. Result 1 happens, SFW has a crapload of new Users and articles to go through; SFW already gets enough flak for its perceived lack of quality when it comes to articles, and a bunch of new Users dropping their fandom there would only increase the problem. Here it is not the main feature nor does it reflect pagecount, so it doesn't hurt SNN either at all or nearly as badly. Result 2 would hurt both even more because sure SNN wouldn't have anymore of the forums, but then SFW would because SNN forced everyone to dump their stuff on SFW. That's not fair to SFW at all, particularly because it would not improve activity at all on SFW.

One way or another, at least one of the wikis loses. Is SNN a fansite? No, i- actually wait, yes it is. We are not officially part of or affiliated with SEGA in any way, shape, or form. But is SNN known for fan-content? No it isn't. Nor will it ever be, because we do not put fan-made content in the actual pages. Allowing fan-made content does not hurt SNN, because SNN is judged on the quality of its mainspace articles and their detail. If all people want to do is make fanon content, then yes; SFW is where they should be if they don't want to contribute to this wiki. But if they do want to contribute to this wiki, they should be allowed to express their creativity on here as part of the community, in the forums and blogs and their userpages. SNN is not a business, nor is it an organization. It is a community. And that community should be allowed some means of expressing itself without having to take it to a different site in order to do so. That isn't fair to the wiki members nor SFW and its members.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 21:44, April 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't say to force our own members off SNN to SFW, that be silly, but simply point out that SFW is best for fanon than having to cram it up in what little space provided on SNN. Im just saying it will be more practical. You saying SNN is not a business or an organisation I agree but only a part of it is "community", the majority of it all is an encyclopedia site dedicated to all information on Sonic. Yes the members who contibute the information and talk among it are the community that support and upholds the wiki and yes should be allowed to express themselves and share there original fan work to us, but wouldn't it be best if they did this through SFW than having to start alternate userpages or having to explain everything, including discussions over it, on forum threads? This is why I believe Fanon might as well be moved to SFW so that members can have a place to talk to others and sort out their fan-ideas more better. But just because I say move a whole forum doesn't mean we have to move the members because they can move back and forth freely anyway. If I can have two tabs for 2 different wiki's open to easily manage at the same time I don't see why not for SFW and SNN members to dual-wield websites.

I am on both wiki's and so are you as admins. If we can be contributing members of both wiki's then I am sure our members wouldn't leave SNN forever to be on SFW. The social activities like Forums and blogs can still be held here just as discussions can also over at SFW. So I really don't see why they can't be contributers to both. Well in all fairness wasn't that expected? SNN is for Sonic-fact while SFW is for Sonic-fiction, It is pretty much the opposite but that doesn't mean they cannot be in total harmony since fact or fiction it's still Sonic at it's core. And SFW has rules and ettiqutte, both wiki's hate trolls and vandalised pages so it's not total anarchy over there. So even if the articles are "dumped" on SFW, pressuming this "dump article" is of some recolour mary sue who's profile picture was made by mouse on MSPaint, then as long as the article is still written out by wiki's standards and not a troll article then it should still be respected as an article, dump or not. That article is certainly of importance to whomever put the effort to make it and hope for feedback.--Mystic Monkey is a proud MonoBook Wikian. 04:44, April 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) SNN will lose members because people decide they want to take their fanon to SFW and don't wanna bother contributing because they can't express their fandom and creativity here, taking away activity from SNN.
 * 2) SNN Users use SFW as a dump site, dropping all their fanon crap on the wiki and only making use of it here on SNN, which is paramount to dumping SNN fanon issues into SFWs lap. People would still be rambling on about their fandom here, while SFW would have to deal with all the articles and pictures/recolors.

I agree with Monkey, if we don't let people put fanon in here, they're probably going to get angry and leave for SFW. ♥Snegg♥  12:03, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I also say we should let them, not as angry members but encouraged, after all SNN and SFW arn't seperated by boundaries and there should be no sense of rivalry or sided debate between the two. Our members can still freely come back to SNN and have freedom discussions here on General, Questions and Site Discussions (and wouldn't be suprise if they wanna talk a bit on what they have at SFW as long as it's relevent to thread).


 * If we do value members personal fanon, which I whole-heartedly for, shouldn't they have the same right and freedom to write out there own fanon articles just like SNN asks them for the canon articles? As an SNN member my freedom of fanon content on SNN has been limited to my Userpage (Put info on yourself, a bit of customisation and fan character. Good luck on making all that an eye-pleaser), alternate userpages (with "User:name/title" titles which make it look awkward), threads on Fanon (in which you have to cram everything in there and discussion straight afterwards which stretches the page even further. And that is if you're lucky that the thread simply don't sink) or the use of blogs. So it's really no big suprise why I myself prefer what SFW has to offer when it comes to members freedom of fanon than what SNN limits me too. On SFW I am allowed to make many articles as I want and organise them just as I need them to be, no need for huge fat articles crammed with everything. Yes not much attention is drawn to them (SFW doesn't have a forum so our Fanon forum on SFW would really help it a lot!) I can organise all my information neatly or seperately as I would with Sonic Team's canon content here on SNN. Despite being a happy member on SFW I am still a loyal admin of SNN. this is why I believe the SNN Fanon forum should be given to SFW. Not just because obviously SNN is for Sonic-fact and SFW is for Sonic-fiction but it would be much more fair to our creative members to really stretch out and play and have the audience and attention they need for their masterpieces.--Mystic Monkey is a proud MonoBook Wikian. 15:31, April 17, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I think people didn't understand what I said, All I said was to move Fanon Fourms to Fanon Wiki, NOT to move everything that's fan stuff there, people can still have their fan-characters on blogs or user pages, all I said is if we can move Fanon Fourms to the Fanon Wiki. Pacmansonic138 23:30, April 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh yes I know that. Move Fanon forum to Sonic Fanon Wiki. I just know despite this we will still have fanon on blogs, userpages and perhaps on a few threads in General and Question forums. Just SFW is best for Sonic fanon in general, thats what it's made for. In fact moving Fanon Forum to SFW will have a place for members for general discussions, decisions and ideas for there projects and for the right attention for their projects and fan articles. (The talk pages on my SFW articles need feedback so talk there would be greatly appreciated.)


 * Also it's easy to have SFW and other non-SNN links right here on SNN. I do it all the time! So if anyone wanna discuss there fan-matters somewhere on SNN, having links to there SFW articles really saves in time and textwalls of explanation on blogs, userpages and such.--Mystic Monkey is a proud MonoBook Wikian. 13:46, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

At this point it seems as though the only person who strongly disagrees is Kagi. However, we need Kagi's help (or the help of another SFW admin) to use the export/import Wikia function on SFW and move the forums across. -- Supermorff (talk) 18:44, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm going to be a little busy. Not only is Morff right in that I strongly disagree with this (these forums are part of SNNs history and hold sentimentality for some of the older members, and those who haven't been on in a long time either out of choice or circumstance), but this has also really exemplified something for me: the lack of proper consensus on this site. Three of the four main people involved in this discussion (me, Mystic, Morff, and Mewkat- hey look, the only one who disagrees is the only one without "M" as the first letter in their username) are almost entirely unaffected by this decision. Mewkat and Morff don't have any fanon forums, and Mystic already has all his stuff on SFW. So basically this vote has come down to the majority of about five people, all of which either already moved their stuff, or don't have any in forumspace at all. The wiki seriously needs to do something about the apathy of its members, especially since people who would be directly affected won't or can't speak up about it.

This is something for a different forum I know, but this is something that needs to be dealt with. I plan on making a forum about ways to tackle the lack of consensus, so SNN can make more meaningful decisions with a greater amount of proper consensus. I mean seriously, look at the people voting! Among them, I am the only person with an actual fanspace forum. To be perfectly honest, it's like doctors determining the policies and plans for construction workers or vice-versa; the people making the decisions aren't affected nor have any personal involvement with the matter.--Kagi mizu -Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 01:59, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody can't comment unless they're blocked, in which case we probably don't care what they have to say. If people don't comment, then that is a tacit acceptance of the decision made in the discussion. And if they don't comment despite strongly disagreeing, that's their own fault for not taking part. Nobody can exactly argue that these site discussions are hard to find now that they're clearly visible on the main page. This isn't like doctors dictating policy for construction workers, it's like civilian managers or politicians setting policy for both doctors and construction workers, which is how things work in the real world. As for your stated personal involvement, Kagi, is that what you're basing your decision on, or do you actually think that fanon forums are important to the future of SNN despite the fact that nobody uses them any more? -- Supermorff (talk) 17:29, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, when was the last time anyone used a fanon forum? Many of the old users who made those forums are unlikely to come back and if they do, I can't imagine that they would be devestated that their forums have been moved.  Myself <font color="Black">123  19:20, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

......

N-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the fannon wiki is for making articles about fannon, not for fannon blogs or fourms! let the fourms stay, its a free world people! ~ just me (unregistered) team fortress 2 and skyrim master and loyal brony

@Anon, Fanon Wiki is for ANYTHING fanon! Pacmansonic138 03:58, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

@pacman but per kagi, the fanon fourms are like memorials for old users that left and are unlikly to come back, and the fannon wiki is flooded with articles about fan caracters and games that will make it hard to find your fourm (simple version: the fannon wiki sucks) ~ just me (unregistered) team fortress 2 and skyrim master and loyal brony


 * I don't think Kagi was arguing that the fanon wiki sucks, considering he's an admin there.
 * As for fanon forums being left up like memorials, that doesn't really hold since we already have a policy in place that fanon of inactive users can (and frequently has been) deleted. -- Supermorff (talk) 07:00, April 21, 2012 (UTC)

* ahem*... Gentlemen?

I propose a middleground. Move the Fandom forums, but keep a record in a special article ("Sonic News Network:History", for example) along with highlights of SNN's history, such as when the wiki was managed by SLJCOAAATR 1 or even the wiki's origins with Guess Who.

Now, I realize what the chances are of anyone actually doing something like that. But I feel that this might in some way make things more peaceful with the move. If there is a better idea, I will support it.-- 07:23, April 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * You mean like I already wrote up at Sonic News Network:About? Expand it if you like. -- Supermorff (talk) 07:27, April 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * * facedesk* I had no idea that section was there, honestly. I had not been in that article in a very long time.
 * Anyway, sure. Now how do I get in anything relating to the Fandom forums... Hmm...-- 07:30, April 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * did anyone even read my reason for thinking the fanon wiki sucks? and kagi preaty mutch took all my words out of my mouth, oh, and one last thing *rolls gernade at supermorff* I am now trying to kill people over this, so would somone please get my my tsar (biggest nuke in the world, russain for emmporror bomb!)? ~ just me (unregistered) team fortress 2 and skyrim master, and loyal brony


 * two fun facts: on 4chan, they have a word filter that changes the word "admin" to "our champion" there are six different types of bans on roblox, one day ban, three day ban, seven day ban, fourteen day ban, poison (prevents the poisoned email adress from making new accounts) IP ban (prevents that cumputer from making a new account)

Getting back on track... Pending Kagi's response to my last question, I think most people are in favour of moving the fanon forums, with Kagi and an unregistered contributor disagreeing for (as far as I can tell) different reasons. Since Kagi pretty much has all the power to complete the move and can hold this up as long as he likes, and since cooperation might be a long time coming, I am inclined to move all the relevant forums onto a third wiki set up for such a purpose, so that they can be taken down here. Kagi can then import them onto SFW whenever he gets around to it. Thoughts? -- Supermorff (talk) 13:50, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

Look, this is about removing a part of SNN's history. The creativity, the developments, the interactions, the growth. Besides, fandom forums are more than you seem to think. They aren't just about fan-games and characters; they're about discussions, comparisons, debates, and many other subjects. Besides, fandom forums aren't the only things hardly used. All of the other forum sections are rarely edited. My issue here is trying to remove more than just fan-games and concept ideas, but deleting and removing part of the wiki's history. Go ahead and look through them, and you'll see that many more of these are discussions and ideas with community participation. That is my issue; removing part of the wiki's history just because people don't use it. And the reason people don't use it is because quite frankly, we don't put it out there as an option. Fandom forums could be used in the place of blogs about these subjects, if we made it known to the common User that these are available.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 07:04, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Kagi, they will not be deleted, just moved. There will be a link on this wiki to the SFW were all the forums will be, so there will be no difference to any users who want to use them and the forums will still be connected to the wiki, just elsewhere.  Myself <font color="Black">123  15:13, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Then what's the point of removing them at all? They don't take up space as-is and they'll be connected to the wiki either way.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 06:28, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Because keeping a designated space for fanon works is counter to the purpose of the wiki. It's not the forums themselves that are the problem per se, it's that we've got a fandom forum in the first place. Maybe some of the pages could be moved to other forums (General, Questions, even Site discussions I guess), but the forums containing collaborative fan projects should go and so should the roleplays, and the fanon forum should be emptied and deleted. -- Supermorff (talk) 18:03, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * pulls out tactical nuke and trigger switch* you better listen to me and kagi, or I press the big red button. PS: don'y call me annon, call me tf2 or brony.~just me (unregistered) brony, team fortress 2, and skyrim master

Dude, I don't care what you call yourself, but drop the threats in place of some maturity, or I'll ban you myself. And rather than Fandom, why not rename it? Not all of it qualifies as "fandom" per se, but much of it relates to the community itself in a domestic or casual sense, much like the conversations, roleplays, and projects. Like an "Off Topic" section you see on many threads and forums, but with a different name.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 06:20, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

@Anon If you want to be called brony. Why dont you just make an account? willaca here (talk to me) 12:06, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I am only eleven, to young to make an account, herp derp (presses button) WARNING! TACTICAL NUKE DETNATION IN TWO MINUTES! ~brony/tf2


 * That Unregistered User was the same user who, a few months ago, insulted the entire wiki and created a spam page naming a former Admin a tyrant. Upon the end of his block, he came back, acted immaturely as he had before, and revealed he was only 11. I think he'll enjoy his infinite block. 15:27, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Good work team. Getting back on topic again, I think we need further discussion about the 'Fandom' forums, but the 'Roleplay' forums are purely roleplays. No discussions, nothing pertinent to the history of the site. I therefore suggest that we export the roleplays immediately, and continue the discussion about the other fan forums. I also suggest that we change the chat policy so that roleplays are only forbidden in the main chatroom, but are acceptable in private conversations. -- Supermorff (talk) 18:27, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Roleplay? Oh, those. Well, I myself have one in the Roleplay forum, the "Adventure Zone" forum. Was and continues to be my most ambitious creation yet. I created it as a multi-use discussion/roleplay forum. And while these Roleplay forums do little for the site as a whole, they do say plenty about the history of individual Users.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 21:21, April 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * So move it into your userspace. -- Supermorff (talk) 06:25, April 28, 2012 (UTC)