Talk:Shadow the Hedgehog

Age
surly Shadow is 50 years old, as he was created 50 years ago.  Myself 123  17:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually it is rounded to 50: Shadow's game manual says "Some 50 years ago, this "Ultimate Life Form" was the result of the army's secret research," also I think there is also a source that says "over 50." Officially his age is "unknown" (as listed in Sonic Heroes manual) because it never pins down the exact distance into the past he was created. But I want to add that this whole "he was created 50 years ago but physically his body is 15" thing is lame, do we ever think about equivalent ages to animals "the dog is 1 year old so physically he is the equivalent of 7 years old in human time."? Besides since his body is ageless, it is always at its peak - the peak age for humans is given as an broad estimate because it is varies between individuals. 69.140.240.96 04:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The source of him being physically 15 is Concept: "Mobius." It points out that Shadow is the same height and weight as Sonic who is 15.Fair field fencer F F F  10:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note:Concept: "Mobius" is a fansite, thus, we can't use it. Also, we really don't know what a male hedgehog from their world could look like at say, age 5. Though, going by the game's time, Shadow should be around 3 (Phyically) Skeletal SLJCOAAATR  Soul 12:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Still for age, i think we should put around 50, it may not be accurate, but it's close.  Myself 123  15:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It should be noted that for Sonic X he would have been created when Sonic is at the age of about 11 due to the time passing difference of the worlds. 97.127.26.212 02:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

You do realize that on Japan's official website Sonic Channel states that Shadow has no age at all. With that in mind, his age slot should say either "ageless" or "N/A". And I'm going to do that right now. 209.255.28.227 20:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, come on! He is ageless, chronically ageless! He was just created 50 years ago! Why do you talk about stupid things?! You guys aren't going to celebrate his B-day or something!-- FreakyBlackDoom58 'If You Wanna See Sonic Ever Again Then Serve Me...Time Is Running Short...BWAHAHAHA!!!'  14:09, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Obviously you don't know what ageless means FreakyBlackDoom, Ageless only means his body doesn't age, that doesn't mean he doesn't have an age, his lived for over 50 years, ergo he's over 50.

So, is anyone going to describe what Shadow does in Sonic Unleashed?
I'm asking since the info for Shadow being in Sonic Unleashed isn't mentioned yet, I haven't gotten the game yet (and even if I did, it would have been the Wii version, which doesn't do much good, as they cut him out of that version) so won't someone update his profile to mention what he is doing in Sonic Unleashed? This goes for Knuckle's article, as well.
 * Early reports said Shadow and Knuckles were in it but it's been proven incorrect. The closest you'll get is a sign post in Empire City telling you which way Shadow Road is. But that's in the Xbox 360 version.Fair field fencer F F F  08:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Well Shadow was supposed to appear in Unleashed and i think he was going to be played in the day stages like Sonic and Knuckles would play the night stages.Sonic &amp; Scrab Master 02:00, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Shadow isnt in Sonic Unleashed(Topaz 67 03:15, December 9, 2009 (UTC))

Sorry
hey um guys sorry but i kind of messed up shadow's image so if someone could fix it, please, I'M VERY SORRY! I was trying to put another picture but failed. :( Dawnthehedgehog 04:20, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I am SO Going to get flamed for this.
But does anyone realise that Shadow is something of a Gary Stu or a Marty Stu or whatever? I mean, he's all powerful, he can't age or die, he can teleport and the creators tried to drown that out with too many faults. -_-, And if you flame me for this, you're violating my right to have an opinion. - Anon

He's nothing of a Sue compared to Blaze. Besides, you said it yourself, he has faults. I'd say it evens out. And I respect your opinion. :P LOL, In my opinion, he's more of a Vincent Valentine. I suggest you get yourself one of these.--Shadowkusanagi 01:23, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

He seems like just a whiney, emo version of Sonic to me. 174.23.107.202 05:06, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

How does being pissed at humanity after being forced to watch his best friend get killed by humans make him emo? I agree with the person who said he was like Vincent Valentine; he was genuinely wronged in the past and swore revenge shortly afterward. And I really don't see any physical resemblance between Shadow and Sonic at all. Xeno the Hedgehog 18:43, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Shadow is emo because his sister/neice, Maria passed. Also because he was created as a weapon of destruction. He thinks better of himself, he doesn't want to destroy things. He also suffers from depression, amnesia and schitzophrenia. Why wouldn't he be emo?? But that's how he's character was created so quit complaining. (Topaz 67 03:16, December 9, 2009 (UTC))

You are generalizing the "emo" stereotype far too much. He's not emo. He USED to be somewhat depressed, but, as of current canon, he seems to do quite well. The amnesia has been non-existant as of the end of his game. He NEVER suffered from schizophrenia whatsoever. And none of his behavior fits the emo-stereotype, either. Herman2000 15:48, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Shadow is cool, but here's a question.
173.73.72.237 05:31, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Here I am leaving a message on the talk of one of my favorite heroes of them all Shadow the Hedgehog (Yeah you Shadow Haters... he's so awesome and you know it). Anyway I came here to post up a question for anyone who can answer it. In the game Shadow the Hedgehog they said that the comet passes by every fifty years. Yet in Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow had awoken after being imprisoned for fifty years in the military base. So why didn't the comet pass by and Black Doom approach him then? I'm posting this question here since there's no discussion section for the Black Comet itself.


 * The Black Arms are religious nutcases, seems to be the short answer. Why didn't they conquer Mobius when Black Doom brought the Glyphic Canyon skyships to the surface of Mobius, 2000 years ago? There wasn't any GUN to stop 'em, then. I suspect the answer does indeed lie in Black Arms eschatology. Notice how Black Doom keeps rambling on about the "Promised time" all the way through Shadow's game? THAT'S why. The Black Arms will have some sort of religious prophecy that prohibited them from acting until the time they eventually did. Molten Scandium 11:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the fact that it might not have been exactly fifty years ago. When Shadow was reawakened it could have easily been 48 years. People some times use rough approximations instead of the actually amount. It's not uncommon.Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  11:29, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO ANNIHILATE THE PLANET!!!!-- FreakyBlackDoom58 'If You Wanna See Sonic Ever Again Then Serve Me...Time Is Running Short...BWAHAHAHA!!!'  14:02, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Immortal?
164.106.16.157 17:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC) I notice that everyone says Shadow does not age and is immortal (even the games say that). Well that could be true, but I'm here to finally say this to the world. Is he really an ageless immortal? I mean sure he's like 50, but he was frozen in sleep for all those years, so of course he wouldn't age. He doesn't look much older with each passing game, but then again Sonic and the others don't look any older or younger either. I'd say that Shadow's physical age is seventeen (since he seems a little older than Sonic) and his actual age is 67.
 * If you can back that up with an official source, like SHadow's profile from Sonic Channel, then you may add it, but for the moment in time, this is merely speculation.<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  17:50, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

164.106.16.157 18:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Well unfortunatly I do not. But until I do, it'll give the users and Shadow Fans something to talk about.


 * I've been thinkin' about this of late as well, to prosecute my vendetta against the Ageless article, LOL. The official website for Sonic '06, however, states outright that Shadow's body dosn't age. However, it also says he "can't be killed", which is blatantly impossible. Nonewithstanding the fact that Shadow dies all the time when you're PLAYING the games, it's also just stupid: I don't care how much Chaos Control the black hog can do, you drop a big enough weight on his head and he will pancake.


 * But I digress. Point is, Shadow is definitly cut-and-dry canonically ageless. Molten Scandium 19:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be a bit of a mistranslation and it's meant to be he can't die, probably of old age and disease and not meaning he is actually 100% invincible.<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  19:35, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair point that. I was most pleased to discover the other day that the two "dimensions" (Land of Sky and Land of Darkness) mentioned in the Sonic Movie aren't actually seperate dimensions at all. That was a translation error; they're really just "areas". Which makes a hell of a lot more sense. Molten Scandium 19:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The very website you linked has even made translation errors. They refer to Blaze as a Queen when she is really a princess. And in Sonic Heroes, Rouge says Shadow is a robot by the end of Team Dark's story, but I learned that in Japanese, robot and a clone or an artificially made being, are very similar in sound or text. Something like that, the point is, Rouge could have been calling Shadow a clone instead of a robot, but it was mistranslated.<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  19:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I always distrusted the "princess" as well, in all honesty. Blaze is never really shown to have any (royal) family or leadership-administrative duties like you'd expect if she really was in charge of her entire world. No, she spends the entire time running around fighting baddies who try to steal her dimension's gems of power. Seems a lot more like "princess" is just her world's title for "Guardian", a la Knucklehead. Molten Scandium 19:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You need to go play Sonic Rush Adventure. She really IS a princess according to that game. Dashing Blue 01:46, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Sub-nuclear fission
Unlike our dear SLJ, I'm usually all in favour of merging. HOWEVER, this article is getting big and bulky, and the "Archie Shadow" Sonic the Hedgehog (comics) section is more than big enough to be set free and given its own page, in the same way that we have a dedicated page for Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie character). It would, I think, aid with the disambiguation. Votes? - Molten Scandium 21:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it.<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  21:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Shadow's SSBB Art VS. Shadow's Sonic 2006 Art

 * Did anybody notice that both artworks are very similar?(not all the way the same, of course)-- A k a m i a (Talk) 04:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Shadow being designed after Sonic? Impossible? Think again!
I remember hearing this in an actual game, not some fanboy ramblings, but it is still possible that Shadow was modeled after Sonic. How? The hieroglyphics in the echinda pyramids depicting Super Sonic! In Sonic Battle, didn't Proffesor Gerald find the Gizoid while studying echinda remains or something? I think he based Shadow's design on the prophecy, explaining why Shadow's sprites are in Super Sonic position. Shadow is only black and red because of Black Arms DNA, otherwise, he would always look like Super Sonic. Now I'm tired, a little dizzy, so I'm not sure about the specifics. I KNOW I heard it somewhere, in an actual game. Can someone back this up from somewhere? Check Sonic Battle, Sonic Adventure, and Shadow the Hedgehog if you wanna do some snooping. -Anonymous contributor

You're totally right!! No wonder they confused Sonic for Shadow in SA2B! Never thought of that, you taught me something today! -- Shelly ' the ' Hedgehog  05:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

shade and shadow....
i think that would be funny to hear....but the mental picture is scary....never mind.artemis fowl 3--Meowmix5 19:02, 1 May 2009 (UTC)meowmix5

No that wouldn't even be funny Shade likes KnucklesWHAT!!! 18:02, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Huh
Why does the reader need to know 'controversial' upon seeing the link to the game of the same name? Shouldn't that just be in the article itself? Kaihedgie 06:07, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well spotted. I'll remove that. -- Supermorff 19:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Shedding...Tears
OMG,he cried!!!!That's very heartwarming!!Shady the Hedgehog 22:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * He did? When? Xeno the Hedgehog 03:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

According to mty friends, it was when Amy reminded him about Maria's promise. But he looked more like frantic then crying--116.50.177.6 04:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)Saria the Hedgehog

This was in Sonic Adventure 2 -- Shelly ' the ' Hedgehog  05:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

He also creid in Sonic X,because Chris remind him what Maria really wanted was for him to be friends with the people and as Chris fainted he caught him in his arm and a close up of him crying is seen with a tear in his eye.--Hikaruyami-having fun* 14:13, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

He also cried in Archie issue 171 "I Am". He cried when he had to leave Maria the Gerald again after geting into Gerald's diary. Read the issue to know what I'm talking about. Sonic &amp; Scrab  Master  Life is just a game you play.

What ze Heck!?
Alright, what's up with the infobox? It looked nice and fine before, and now it looks likes.....this! Could the person who did this please explain? I'm not an admin, so I can't reprimand them, I just wanna know why they think they have the right to change something like the infobox so drastically!--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500"> 'round ~ 15:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

THE TRIVIA WAS A TOTAL DRAG!!!!
The trivia of Shadow's was so bad that I forgot that I can't eat water! Luckily, I removed it.-- LonelyAssassin 'Vote My Poll'  14:03, October 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Seemed pretty legit to me. Xeno the Hedgehog 16:41, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

No it wasn't.-- LonelyAssassin 'Vote My Poll'  14:03, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe try to explain in greater detail what's so bad about it. Herman2000 21:40, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Okay fine..whatever:


 * 1. It is said that Shadow and Amy are "close" or "good" friends, meaning that Shadow must remember his encounter with her to some extent.

It doesn't matter. They aren't "close friends" and it who cares if he remembers his encounter with her. Shadow and Amy barely show any relation!


 * 2.When Shadow gains first place in Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity he will say that his opponents are "too slow", this is also one of Sonic's taunts in Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

Again, who cares? Any quote can be similiar! Lots of people call others "slow".


 * 3.Shadow shows a sense of manners to girls. He has never been foul to any female character except, perhaps, Marine the Raccoon. Shadow is also practically the only male character who did not consider Amy rather careless or a waste of time (like Silver did when he asked himself what on earth he was doing with her and Sonic, Knuckles and Tails who find Amy rather a distraction).

This is what I hate the most! You already know how dumb this is! Shadow doesn't talk much to her...does that mean respect? Shadow doesn't talk much to anyone!


 * 4.If Shadow is created from Black Doom's blood, so that means, that Shadow possibly has green blood (Black Arms have green blood). However in episode 73 of Sonic X he is seen with a red cut on his left eye leaving his blood color up for debate.

SEGA made the blood "green" because it would make it friendlier, making it "red" will make people come to think of the fact that it is actually "the blood with oxyhaemoglobin". I have played SEGA Super-stars Tennis and "everyone's" blood is green (They bleed when you get hurt by a zombie in Curien's Mansion) even 'Beat' has green blood!


 * Shadow is said to not eat or drink. However, in episode 72 0f the Japanese version of Sonic X, he is seen with an orange beverage.

Who said that he can't drink?! And it's normal to show someone drinking orange juice in a cartoon! Leave him alone, he's just drinking!


 * Shadow is left-handed, as revealed in Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006). In Sonic and the Black Knight, Lancelot wields his sword right-handed. Either Lancelot is canonically right-handed (possible, since though he resemlbes Shadow they are distinct characters), or this is because of the Wii's right hand controls, similar to what Nintendo used for the Wii version of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.

This isn't useful enough.
 * Shadow is considered to be the most violent and mature character in the Sonic continuities due to the fact that he has driven several vehicles, uses vulgar language and guns(in Shadow the Hedgehog (video game)).

Now, this doesn't matter, because such attitude is only shown in Shadow the Hedgehog.


 * Like most of the Sonic characters, Shadow can take considerable physical punishment, enough that he was shot at point-blank range by Mephiles into a stalactite and still manages to remain conscious, even standing up and continuing to fight afterwards. He also has a very high tolerance to pain. These facts are probably due to characters' strong will, as well as the experimentation of which he is the result.

Can't we just say he's strong or....DON'T MENTION THIS AT ALL!


 * Shadow was originally meant to be a one-time character, hence his 'death' scene at the end of Sonic Adventure 2. However, due to his popularity, he was brought back for Sonic Heroes. This has led to minor controversy from fans as they believe that Shadow's apparent death made a great ending and bringing him back so soon weakened the impact of it.

Fans views do not consider. Must not be put.


 * In Shadow the Hedgehog, the president has a picture of Sonic and Shadow standing near the White House on his desk, however, Shadow had only appeared in Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, and they have never gone near the White House for a picture. Though it is possible that this happened between the events of Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog.

There is no "big reasoning" the game was just trying to show you that Shadow protected Earth with Sonic, we shouldn't care about "when did this happen". It's a fictional videogame series! Not real life! Don't be personal with your (not you) videogame!


 * In the Sonic the Hedgehog 2006 storyline, following the release of the Flames of Disaster in Silver's time, Shadow was blamed and imprisoned in stasis again. However, with Solaris gone, this fate is possibly null now. Furthermore, the credibility of this claim can be called into question, since the only person stating this was Mephiles, who may have said this in order to trick Shadow into working with him or Omega into questioning his current path of action.

This doesn't make sense. Either this is bad English or it doesn't have a point.


 * Ironically, despite having possibly the most detailed backstory of any character in the series, Shadow is often seen as a "mysterious" character, though this is probably due to his secluded persona.

Fan's must have called him "mysterious", no fan views. It's an encyclopedia.


 * The scene before Circus Park in Shadow the Hedgehog shows Shadow saying the line, "Where's that damn fourth Chaos Emerald?" The line is used often in YouTube Poops.

I don't care what comes on Youtube! And neither should you guys!


 * Shadow is believed to be based on Sonic because of his likeness to Super Sonic (where fans believed that Prof. Gerald based Shadow off of an ancient depiction of Super Sonic fighting Perfect Chaos) this may be why Shadow and Sonic themselves call the other "Faker" as an insult in his first appearance for that reason, it also explains why Shadow's quills point upwards as though he is super.

AGAIN fans! He looks like Sonic and that's final! Do not go in detail! (Psh! Talking about being personal to fictional characters!)-- LonelyAssassin 'Vote My Poll'  14:03, October 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * When did "who cares" become a euphemism for "stop contradicting me, I don't have a convincing counterargument"? and apparently YOU care, else you wouldn't be bitching and moaning about it. And by the way, the article goes into detail about it because that's the PURPOSE of an information database. And I honestly don't see any resemblance, physical or otherwise, between Sonic and Shadow. Xeno the Hedgehog 02:00, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with all but two things. The thing about his future imprisonment makes perfect sense and is written in the English language as taught at schools all over the world. And why NOT go into detail? That's what makes things interesting, all the little details that make the sum. You're making it seem as if most of this wiki was pointless due to it's large amount of detail put into many an article. Also, your constant "for Naka-san's sake", "for Griffith's sake" etc. makes you look, no offense, quite ridiculous. Not to mention that the suffix "-san" is not part of English language grammar or syntax. Herman2000 12:26, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Superhuman strength?
Uh, just curious, but... wouldn't the capability to lift entire BUSSES and gigantic concrete pieces of a road not be a good example of Shadow's superhuman strength? Herman2000 12:28, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Source for that information, please? I mean... it's been never implied and Chaos Control is most often accompanied by Shadow yelling the name of the technique -- nowhere have I seen that Chaos Control enables one to make things levitate. In fact, all it is shown to be capable of is to teleport matter instantly, slow down and allow travel through time. Herman2000 02:50, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Technically, Chaos Control is defined as the general manipulation of space and time via chaos energy. Therefore, it's possible that he can use a form of it to aid in the displacement of objects in space, or in layman's terms, changing the space around the object makes it easier to move. However, this does not necessarily mean that he does not possess unusually high physical strength as well. In "Shadow the Hedgehog" all of the heavy items that he was able to lift were glowing before he got near enough to touch them, so the possibility that he can lift them via his own physical strength cannot be ruled out. It could even be a combination of the two factors. Xeno the Hedgehog 03:38, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Now that there is a FAR more logical attempt at a theory and one I could actually live with. Nice. Herman2000 13:48, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Also notice, he didn't just lift the bus, he THREW IT...WITH ONE HAND!!!

shadow is so awesome one ?
shadow is so awesome he is one of mi favorite characters in sonic x um do shadow and tikal get along with each other cause mi friend and i love him so she just wanted to know you r so cool. XDDD

Shadow and Tikal have never met. Tikal only appeared in Sonic Adventure's story mode and in two player mode of sonic Adventure 2.  Myself <font color="Black">123  22:55, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Huh never knew thatThis Message Will Self-Distruct in 5 seconds 20:26, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow = Vegeta
Shadow and Vegeta are very similar, 'cause both are rivals with the main character, both are prideful and both are seen most of the time wirh folded arms.190.82.181.42 16:01, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Anti-Hero
If that's the case, should we label Batman as an Anti-Hero? I mean, Batman was almost humorless. However, he did legitimately want to make Gotham a better place when doing heroics, even if his heroics had to utilize Vigilantism. Weedle McHairybug 14:56, February 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Being supposedly humorless does not make one an anti-hero. Vigilant behavior is a tad more likely to have one classified in that category, however. Herman2000 22:28, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Edit disbute
SalaComMander keeps making Shadows alingment Good but me and ShadowGTR think Shadow is at lest Neutral but most fans conseder Shadow to Dark. Witch ones right?

16:51, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

The reason why I believe he is Neutral is because he's served both that of evil as well as good. He was a primary antagonist in Sonic Adventure 2, assisting in the blowing up of Prison Island and played a role in the near destruction of Earth before teaming up with Super Sonic to save it, and also could've been evil (if played as such) in Shadow the Hedgehog. Which is where the good aspects come in, he saved Earth in SA2, and depending on the different stories he also helped out in Shadow the Hedgehog (in the Final Story, he saved Earth as well). The means he accomplished most, if not all of these things was through any means necessary (vigilante) including fighting GUN and Sonic himself. The mix of bad and good is why I believe Shadow to be Neutral. And one can't say he'll be good from now on because that's only speculation. Until it's official decided that he's one or the other, he should remain neutral. -ShadowGTR

Yes what he said.

17:56, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree Sledge The  Hedgehog  18:35, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

But you see, Shadow hasn't been evil since his own game, and even that game reveals he's a hero at the end. Shadow also WILL NOT be working for evil ever again. Shadow should not be counted as an Anti-Hero, otherwise we'd have to classify Knuckles as an Anti-Hero, too. -SalaComMander

Here's my rebuttal:

"Shadow hasn't been evil since his own game, and even that game reveals he's a hero at the end. Shadow also WILL NOT be working for evil ever again." Just because he hasn't done any noteable acts currently, does not rule out what he's done before and what he CAN do in the future. You can't predict the future so you can't say that Shadow will NEVER show us this again.

"Shadow should not be counted as an Anti-Hero, otherwise we'd have to classify Knuckles as an Anti-Hero, too." Why? Knuckles has never done anything evil. The only reason why he fought Sonic to begin with was because Eggman tricked him.

-ShadowGTR

Shadow hasn't done anything really evil either, seeing as at the time, he thought he was delivering justice, but now that he knows the difference between right and wrong, HE WON'T ACT EVIL ANYMORE!!! Also, Shadow now works for G.U.N., G.U.N. is not an evil organizaion, in fact they're job is to protect the people. Hopefully, you shouldn't need more convincing than that. If you do, you are a very sad person. -SalaComMander

No sir this wiki is about facts not opinion.

-- 22:17, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

The only opinion I have stated is that ShadowGTR is an idiot, and I never said that directly. -SalaComMander

"he thought he was delivering justice". Just because he thought he was delivering justice doesn't mean his ACTS in doing so weren't evil.

"Shadow hasn't done anything really evil either." So destroying countless militray equipment, decimating Prison Island, and potentially obliterating Earth isn't evil?

"now that he knows the difference between right and wrong, HE WON'T ACT EVIL ANYMORE!!!" No one said he didn't know the difference, but the point of being a vigilant is taking matters into your own hands and doing whatever you see as necessary to get the job done (including committing crimes in the process).

"Shadow now works for G.U.N." That never stopped him from fighting Sonic in Chronicles in order to find Omega.

"G.U.N. is not an evil organizaion, in fact they're job is to protect the people." They killed several people on ARK in order to silence them and the projects they were conducting. Doesn't sound very good to me.

"Hopefully, you shouldn't need more convincing than that. If you do, you are a very sad person." Ad Hominem attacks aren't going to help your point. - -

-ShadowGTR

"ShadowGTR is an idiot, and I never said that directly" Apparently you just did. Hypocrite much? -ShadowGTR

You ARE an idiot, aren't you? By "I never said that directly" I meant I had never said it BEFORE.

"Just because he thought he was delivering justice doesn't mean his ACTS in doing so weren't evil." And yet Knuckles wasn't being evil? Shadow was not intentionally evil.

"So destroying countless militray equipment, decimating Prison Island, and potentially obliterating Earth isn't evil?" Again, justice. He didn't know.

"No one said he didn't know the difference, but the point of being a vigilant is taking matters into your own hands and doing whatever you see as necessary to get the job done (including committing crimes in the process)." HE said (indirectly) that he didn't know the difference.

"That never stopped him from fighting Sonic in Chronicles in order to find Omega." Omega is Shadow's frined, if Omega's in danger, Shadow will do anything to save him. As well, he would do the same thing for Sonic.

"And yet, G.U.N. is classified as "Heroes" while Shadow is classified as an "Anti-Hero"

"Ad Hominem attacks aren't going to help your point." You are a very sad person.

-SalaComMander

______________________________________

"You ARE an idiot, aren't you? By "I never said that directly" I meant I had never said it BEFORE." I was being rhetorical but in saying it you just proved my point.

"And yet Knuckles wasn't being evil? Shadow was not intentionally evil." Defense of ones own property isn't evil, intentional destruction is.

"Again, justice. He didn't know." He didn't know killing people is wrong? I call bull.

"HE said (indirectly) that he didn't know the difference." When you say indirectly, I call it speculation.

"Omega is Shadow's frined, if Omega's in danger, Shadow will do anything to save him. As well, he would do the same thing for Sonic." Keyword: ANYTHING. AKA being a vigilant, again, proving my point.

""And yet, G.U.N. is classified as "Heroes" while Shadow is classified as an "Anti-Hero"" Because government institutes aren't the least bit corrupt even if the purpose is "protecting the people"? Doubt it.

"You are a very sad person." Once again, proving my point. -ShadowGTR

"I was being rhetorical but in saying it you just proved my point." Your point was I was a hypocrite, which was not proven in any way.

"Defense of ones own property isn't evil, intentional destruction is." Knuckles has done more than protect his propety, he's almost killed Sonic a few times.

"He didn't know killing people is wrong? I call bull." J-U-S-T-I-C-E! They killed Maria, he was going to avenge her death.

"When you say indirectly, I call it speculation." Play the game Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow realises at the end that Maria didn't want him to kill people, but to give them the chance to be happy. And you know, evil people ALWAYS want to make people happy.

"Keyword: ANYTHING. AKA being a vigilant, again, proving my point." Being vigilant doesn't make him evil. Look one topic up, Batman is not an Anti-Hero.

"Because government institutes aren't the least bit corrupt even if the purpose is "protecting the people"? Doubt it." G.U.N. is not an evil orginization, they're job is to make sure everyone is safe. They thought Project Shadow was unsafe, so they shut it down. And they also thought Gerald and all the people who worked on it were insane, so maybe this Ultimate Life-Form was actually intended to kill everyone, which, as we learned in Shadow The Hedgehog, wasn't true.

The fact that you are sad isn't helping me prove my point, but it does make your point less applicable.

-SalaComMander

Ok this has gotten out of hand. And learn to post singature, its conusing when I dont know when one ends and onuther one starts. -

this discribes shadow's alignment well.

"The hero of the downtrodden, the chaotic good character cares not for laws and order but only for doing good. If they must break the law to help others, they will do so without compunction."

anti hero. Sledge The  Hedgehog  22:59, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

"Hero" "Good" "Helping others" How that makes Shadow an Anit-Hero I don't understand. As pointed out earlier, Batman is not an Anti-Hero, and what you just said describes Batman just as well as it describes Shadow.

Hero. -SalaComMander

he would steal to feed a friend or kill to protect an ally. both evil action's for good deed's Sledge The  Hedgehog  23:13, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

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"Your point was I was a hypocrite, which was not proven in any way." No, my point was your use of Ad Hominem to cover speculation. -

"Knuckles has done more than protect his propety, he's almost killed Sonic a few times." Killed? Doubt it. -

"They killed Maria, he was going to avenge her death." By KILLING people. It doesn't matter if its for justice. Killing is killing. +

"And you know, evil people ALWAYS want to make people happy." Forgetting parts of the past and not knowing the difference between right and wrong are not synonymous. And since your using Batman as an analogy, The Joker really wants to make people happy right? Umm... no. +

"Being vigilant doesn't make him evil. Look one topic up, Batman is not an Anti-Hero." It doesn't always make one evil. Batman is a perfect example. And yes that makes him an Anti-Hero. But lets not digress.

"They thought Project Shadow was unsafe, so they shut it down. And they also thought Gerald and all the people who worked on it were insane, so maybe this Ultimate Life-Form was actually intended to kill everyone," If they thought they were insane, why wouldn't they just place them in mental institutes like a real government would instead of senselessly killing them?

"The fact that you are sad isn't helping me prove my point" I never said it was, but in your Ad Hominem-spree (of sorts) it's proving mine.

Now addressing Sledge. He seems to get the idea. I think Chaotic would be a good addition. But we have to realize that Shadow wouldn't always rush to the aid of the downtrodden. But it IS fitting. A "Chaotic Hero, Neutral, Evil" category(ies) would be a welcome compromise. Thanks Sledge. -ShadowGTR

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it's from the alignment page of the wowwiki. true it dosen't completely discribe shadow it is close Sledge The  Hedgehog  23:24, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

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Chaotic Neutral: "The true individual, the chaotic neutral character prizes their own freedom above all else. They do not want ties to either good or evil to influence them, preferring to make their own way as they see fit. Most chaotic neutral care nothing for people in their groups, have little to no allegiances, caring only for themselves" -Wowwiki

Yeah I agree, the wowwiki alignment system takes things into great detail. Thanks for the source. =)

-ShadowGTR

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"No, my point was your use of Ad Hominem to cover speculation." Not in that particular case.

"Killed? Doubt it. -" Oh sure, people always survive when you shove them off of a cliff. He was just being friendly.

"By KILLING people. It doesn't matter if its for justice. Killing is killing. +" Yes, by killing people. "An eye for an eye", you ever heard that? It doesn't make sense unless it applies to you. Suppose someone killed your best friend, and you knew who did it, what would you do?

"Forgetting parts of the past and not knowing the difference between right and wrong are not synonymous. And since your using Batman as an analogy, The Joker really wants to make people happy right? Umm... no. +" Joker is insane. He thinks he's funny, and that people like his sense of humor.

"It doesn't always make one evil. Batman is a perfect example. And yes that makes him an Anti-Hero. But lets not digress." Batman is not an Anti-Hero, Batman does not work for evil. Ever. Nor will Shadow. Also, let's think of other people than Batman. Is Spider-Man an Anti-Hero? Is Jack Bauer (that guy from 24) an Anti-Hero? Is James Bond an Anti-Hero? Is Dante from Devil May Cry an Anti-Hero?

"If they thought they were insane, why wouldn't they just place them in mental institutes like a real government would instead of senselessly killing them?" Yeah, asylums in space were all the rage 50 years ago. The government has weird methods of doing things, but they do what they think is best for the general public.

"I never said it was, but in your Ad Hominem-spree (of sorts) it's proving mine." I'm not even touching that one, I'm tired of pointing out your idiocy.

"'Chaotic Hero, Neutral, Evil' category(ies) would be a welcome compromise. Thanks Sledge." You just made Shadow sound more evil than he is good. You know, "he was before, but not no more" You wouldn't compromise, as shown by your suggestion for "compromise". Yes, Thank you, Sledge

we,re not sayin shadow is evil, we,re sayin shadow would an evil deed without a second thought if there was no alternative Sledge The  Hedgehog  23:47, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

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"Oh sure, people always survive when you shove them off of a cliff. He was just being friendly. " A pixelated ledge a cliff does not make and falling into water is not as deadly as you think.

"An eye for an eye", you ever heard that? It doesn't make sense unless it applies to you. Suppose someone killed your best friend, and you knew who did it, what would you do?" An eye for an eye is not moral. If someone killed my best friend I'd call the police and if they were the ones that did it, then your out of luck unless you resort to doing evil.

Using any other villian besides Joker would still apply with the same rule, they don't care about benefitting other people, just themselves.

"Batman is not an Anti-Hero, Batman does not work for evil. Ever. Nor will Shadow. Also, let's think of other people than Batman. Is Spider-Man an Anti-Hero? Is Jack Bauer (that guy from 24) an Anti-Hero? Is James Bond an Anti-Hero? Is Dante from Devil May Cry an Anti-Hero? " Again, you assume if they are an anti-hero, they work for evil. That's not what it means. Being an anti-hero means you are willing to do whatever necessary EVEN IF it means commiting crimes.

"Yeah, asylums in space were all the rage 50 years ago." I don't believe said "in space" so don't twist my words.

"I'm tired of pointing out your idiocy." Calling someone an idiot =/= pointing out why they are.

"You just made Shadow sound more evil than he is good." Not what I meant, when I pointed out these categories, they were to be seperate for different entities, not just Shadow.

"You wouldn't compromise, as shown by your suggestion for "compromise"." Wait, I'm unwilling to compromise by suggesting a compromise? I seriously think the addition of these categories would simplify these problems.

-ShadowGTR

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"IF THERE WAS NO ALTERNATIVE" I would like to quote Sonic, who said "Guess I can't be the hero everytime." Shadow would be willing to do something (I wouldn't say "evil") unapproved of, in order to save people's lives, but only if he HAS to. Same with Sonic.

"A pixelated ledge a cliff does not make and falling into water is not as deadly as you think." Then why can you die from falling off of Niagra Falls? Hitting water at high speed (speed that can be attained from falling from hieghts) is worse than hitting cement.

"An eye for an eye is not moral. If someone killed my best friend I'd call the police and if they were the ones that did it, then your out of luck unless you resort to doing evil." So you say now, but you're not in the situation, so you can't say that's what you would do.

"Using any other villian besides Joker would still apply with the same rule, they don't care about benefitting other people, just themselves." Joker, as you said, wants to ake other people laugh, that's selfless.

"Again, you assume if they are an anti-hero, they work for evil. That's not what it means. Being an anti-hero means you are willing to do whatever necessary EVEN IF it means commiting crimes." The whole reason you claim Shadow is an Anti-Hero is because he'll work for evil, which he did use to do, but now will not, which is the whole point of this.

"I don't believe said 'in space' so don't twist my words." Where the asylum is does not matter, these people were thought to be mentally unstable and extremely dangerous. Tell me, what became of Saddam Hussein?

"Calling someone an idiot =/= pointing out why they are." You're right, I don't need to point it out, you do a good enough job yourself.

"Not what I meant, when I pointed out these categories, they were to be seperate for different entities, not just Shadow." Then why didn't you simply say "Good, Neutral, Evil"?

"Wait, I'm unwilling to compromise by suggesting a compromise? I seriously think the addition of these categories would simplify these problems." Your compromise isn't a compromise because you called it that. Here, I have a compromise. Look at Shadow's alignment now.

-SalaComMander

there are diferent variety's of good, evil and neutral. shade's of grey as it were. Sledge The  Hedgehog  00:16, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

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"(I wouldn't say "evil")" Why not? It would be accurate.

"Then why can you die from falling off of Niagra Falls?" There was no definitive picture of the distance of the fall in the game. You can't make ludacris claims unless its backed up.

"So you say now, but you're not in the situation, so you can't say that's what you would do." So why give the analogy if you were just going to throw it out?

"Joker, as you said, wants to ake other people laugh, that's selfless." Joker wants to spread anarchy and chaos and kill Batman as a final act of self-glorification. Plus I don't the people he killed appreciated his sense of humor.

"Where the asylum is does not matter, these people were thought to be mentally unstable and extremely dangerous. Tell me, what became of Saddam Hussein?" You can't compare scientists to an extremist dictator. It doesn't work that way.

"The whole reason you claim Shadow is an Anti-Hero is because he'll work for evil, which he did use to do, but now will not, which is the whole point of this." No, my point is he'd do anything he sees as necessary, doing evil is proof of this and it still stands.

"You're right, I don't need to point it out, you do a good enough job yourself." Dude, can you look any more like a child right now? Throughtout this entire debate, you've been throwing insults left and right and I didn't say anything like that once to you. Just stay on topic. And I said saying it isn't proving it.

Then why didn't you simply say "Good, Neutral, Evil"?" Because there's different kinds, Lawful and Chaotic being the most prevalent.

"Here, I have a compromise. Look at Shadow's alignment now." A compromise is something both parties agree on, which is why I suggested the additional categories. -ShadowGTR

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"Why not? It would be accurate." Because he doesn't do it for the sake of being evil

"There was no definitive picture of the distance of the fall in the game. You can't make ludacris claims unless its backed up." First off, I'm pretty sure that the terrain didn't change that dramatically in the after 12 feet, secondly, the fall Sonic experiances at the beginning of Hydrocity Zone, is in itself extremely high.

"So why give the analogy if you were just going to throw it out?" it was my plan all along. Notice how I said "It doesn't make sense unless it applies to you." I meant that, you know.

"Joker wants to spread anarchy and chaos and kill Batman as a final act of self-glorification. Plus I don't the people he killed appreciated his sense of humor." Let's get off Joker, it's getting unproductive for both of us.

"You can't compare scientists to an extremist dictator. It doesn't work that way." Yes I can. Because it's not their title that I'm comparing, it's their threat level to public safety.

"No, my point is he'd do anything he sees as necessary, doing evil is proof of this and it still stands." He would do anything necessary, but he only does it for the good of others.

"Dude, can you look any more like a child right now? Throughtout this entire debate, you've been throwing insults left and right and I didn't say anything like that once to you. Just stay on topic. And I said saying it isn't proving it." I can look more child-like, watch this. I'M RIGHT AND I WON'T LISTEN TO REASON! SHADOW IS IN NO WAY A GOOD GUY AND BECAUSE I SAID IT, IT MUST BE TRUE!

"Because there's different kinds, Lawful and Chaotic being the most prevalent." Ok, then why couldn't you say "Chaotic Good/Heroic Evil"? Instead you made Shadow sound evil, and will only do good if he can do something evil while doing it.

"A compromise is something both parties agree on, which is why I suggested the additional categories." And I took your suggestion (not a compromise, a suggestion), and modified it to MAKE it a compromise.

-SalaComMander

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"He would do anything necessary, but he only does it for the good of others." that's why he's an anti-hero

"Ok, then why couldn't you say "Chaotic Good/Heroic Evil"? Instead you made Shadow sound evil, and will only do good if he can do something evil while doing it." what is meant is that there was no other way he would do it an evil way.

 Sledge The  Hedgehog  00:49, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

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Sledge, if there was no other way, Sonic would resort to doing whatever he could, even if it meant do something "evil"

ShadowGTR, you're focusing too much on what Shadow was, and not on what he is.

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"Because he doesn't do it for the sake of being evil" He doesn't for the sake of evil but for the sake of accomplishment

"I'm pretty sure that the terrain didn't change that dramatically in the after 12 feet, secondly, the fall Sonic experiances at the beginning of Hydrocity Zone, is in itself extremely high." I actually watched a clip of the fall real quick and the distance to the water in comparison with Sonic's height WAS high but not high enough to be construed as attempted murder. I actually have a theory about this but I'd rather not digress further.

"it was my plan all along. Notice how I said "It doesn't make sense unless it applies to you." I meant that, you know." If that's true then the only furthers why it was uneeded to begin with.

"Let's get off Joker, it's getting unproductive for both of us. " I actually agree.

"Yes I can. Because it's not their title that I'm comparing, it's their threat level to public safety." A percieved threat is different when comparing the "assumption of a work" to actually seeing a tyrant opress his people. That's why it doesn't work.

"No, my point is he'd do anything he sees as necessary, doing evil is proof of this and it still stands." He would do anything necessary, but he only does it for the good of others." Somewhat agree, but I do not believe for the good of EVERYONE but I can fathom for some people.

"I can look more child-like, watch this. I'M RIGHT AND I WON'T LISTEN TO REASON! SHADOW IS IN NO WAY A GOOD GUY AND BECAUSE I SAID IT, IT MUST BE TRUE!" Ok then.

"Instead you made Shadow sound evil, and will only do good if he can do something evil while doing it." If that's the case, then it was just misconstrued, no need to further this.

"And I took your suggestion (not a compromise, a suggestion), and modified it to MAKE it a compromise." But in order for it to work you have to run it by the other party and establish further details from there, not just take it into your own hands and say that's how it's going to be.

"on what Shadow was, and not on what he is." Old habits die hard. Shadow's case still remains to be seen. Will follow-up however.

-ShadowGTR

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Okay. Know I'm getting into this. For one thing, look up anti-heroes on Wikipedia, Shadow is on there list of Anti-Heroes. Also, he's not good if he tried to waste Sonic a million times, blow up the moon, blow up a highly-populated (with solders) island, try to destroy the world even though the guys who killed Maria were long-gone,helped save Dr. Eggman, worry about a doom weapon that worked for a evil doctor, shot regular people just to get his past back and helping an army of EVIL ALIENS!! And he ain't evil becuase he saved Rouge, Omega, Cream, killed the Doom, killed the Biolizard, defeated Nega, Irift, Iblis, Mephiles, defeated the Marauders, helped save the Olympic Winter Games, defeated Metal Sonic and also stopped Eggman on occasion. So, he has to be an anti-hero.Riot\AU 15:32, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

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Ah finally someone reasonable. Feel free to make the edit because if I do, Mr."I'M RIGHT AND I WON'T LISTEN TO REASON! SHADOW IS IN NO WAY A GOOD GUY AND BECAUSE I SAID IT, IT MUST BE TRUE!" will probably have another fit.

-ShadowGTR

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Uh, what edit? Do you want me to delete the "Chaotic Hero" part in his alignment or something?Riot\AU 15:51, February 16, 2010 (UTC)

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Assuming the addition of the "Chaotic" part is not allowed to begin with, if so, that would just leave the Good/Neutral part. And we've already elaborated he's not a knight in shining armor to be just good. Not to mention, Good and Neutral are somewhat contradictions to eachother. But I'd rather not make this call alone until this "controversy" dies down. -ShadowGTR

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A fit, huh? You do know I said that as a not-so-subtle way of making fun of you, right? Or were you completely oblivious to that? It wasn't that hard to figure out. I said it with the intentions of you figuring it out instantly, seeing as in my mind, you were the one being immature, but yet again, I waste my intelligence on you. -SalaComMander

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Of course it was obvious and, with the exception of capping for emphasis, if it wasn't a fit, the over-abundance of caps-lock wouldn't be there, which is why I wanted to keep the quote, I just found it funny. I also like how you say I was the one being immature when I haven't spouted even one obscenity during the entire duration and supposedly that's a waste of intelligence? Makes perfect sense. Besides that alone, I just hate it when if someone doesn't get there point across or gets it across poorly they have to resort to yelling and/or name calling like it's going to make your point anymore valid. I'd be more than happy to continue this in a civilized manner and avoid any further alterations to the page until a verdict is reached. Peace. -ShadowGTR

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You were being immature. Your idea of a "compromise" is when one side (namely you) gets the bigger cut. My compromise wasn't good enough for you because we both got what we wanted, but at a price.

I would also like to point out that, again, you're focusing on what Shadow was and not what he is. Shadow was evil, Shadow was a bad-guy, Shadow did do evil things. But when was the last time Shadow did something bad? 2005! And at the end of that game, he saved the world single-handedly and selflessly, then gave up on his past completely, forgiving the human race, then swearing to protect them with his life.

"Peace"? How surprising of you. I'd be willing to accept peace. This isn't some kind of trick, is it? I've been tricked so many times, I'm a little untrusting. -SalaComMander

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I'm reffering to being immature as the shouting of insults not the inversion of the alignment. Besides that was the entire point of the compromise: You put Chaotic Hero and I tagged Neutral since he exhibits characteristics from both sides. So it was split 50/50, supposedly that problem was solved.

Yes, I focus on what Shadow did but that doesn't change  what  he did and how that affected his reputation, attitude, and method for completing tasks over time. It's the mix of the good and bad not just an overwhelming factor that determines if he's one or the other unlike other characters where one significantly overpowers another (ie. Knuckles as the previous analogy, but let's not digress again). That's all I was trying to get across, again which is why he exhibits the aforementioned characteristics in his alignment as we discussed before.

When I say peace I mean, "see ya later". But the whole idea for the compromise was to give peace of mind. If theres anymore inquiries, feel free to ask. Again, peace, (see ya later). -ShadowGTR

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My compromise was to say he's good and formely neutral, but since you thought I was getting more than my share, I decided maybe "Chaotic Hero" was a compromise, seeing as I'm still stating he's a hero, yet stating that he's somewhat evil, despite the fact that he's not. That still wasn't good enough for you. We can't "compromise" anymore without me losing everything, therefor, I'm going back to "plan A" -SalaComMander

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According to the alignment chart that Sledge mentioned, the Chaotic Hero does the right thing, even if that involves breaking the law. Which is true, so that works. And according to Neutral, he ultimately follows the path in which he believes strongly in. Which is also true. He matches both the characteristics of Chaotic Hero and Neutral. You're not losing anything, it's still being included. Where's the problem here? -ShadowGTR

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But you see, Sonic would also do anything he could to make sure that the right thing is done, remeber this game? Sonic isn't neutral.

No, if I wasn't losing, it would point out that Shadow is a good guy, but the closest it comes to that is saying he'll be a good guy, but doesn't care about what he does in the process. -SalaComMander

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No one's saying that Sonic is neutral. And Shadow IS good to an extent but if you still don't take my word for it here's the excerpt.

True Neutral Chaotic Good ____________________________________
 * A middle-of-the-road character, a neutral character finds it difficult to fit into any other distinction. They do what seems to be a good idea, whether it flows with law or chaos, good or evil.
 * The hero of the downtrodden, the chaotic good character cares not for laws and order but only for doing good. If they must break the law to help others, they will do so without compunction.

You're not saying Sonic is neutral, but you're implying it, seeing as everytime you point out what a Chaotic Hero or Neutral character is, you end up describing Sonic in the process.

True Neutral Chaotic Good So, if Shadow is neutral, Sonic must be, too. But he's not, nor will he ever be. -SalaComMander
 * A middle-of-the-road character, a neutral character finds it difficult to fit into any other distinction. They do what seems to be a good idea, whether it flows with law or chaos, good or evil.
 * Shadow fits in just fine with the Heroes.
 * The hero of the downtrodden, the chaotic good character cares not for laws and order but only for doing good. If they must break the law to help others, they will do so without compunction.
 * Shadow works for G.U.N., he obeys the law. He may not perserve "order", but neither does Sonic.

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Sonic fits along the lines of:

Neutral Good
Actually Sonic does and doesn't which is why he works within both. I've actually considered this for Shadow but it's not as forceful as exhibited with the other ones. What do you think?
 * Ultimately a giver, the neutral good character will do what they can to help, working within law or chaos; but ultimately they prefer their own counsel.

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So, why is Sonic stilll classified as a hero?

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"will do what they can to help"

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That describes Shadow perfectly.

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Shadow: "They do what seems to be a good idea, whether it flows with law or chaos, good or evil."

Sonic: "Ultimately a giver."

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HE NORMALLY DOESN'T HELPWHAT!!! 18:21, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

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(That guys annoying)

Shadow is also a giver, and is completely selfless.

Sonic will do anything he can, usually causing tons of property damage along the way.

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Shadow isn't always selfless and Sonic prefers his own counsel, like Shadow, but isn't willing to harm others.

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You, like everyone else, are focusing on what Shadow was and not what he is. Shadow hasn't done a selfish act or harmed anyone since his own game. That was five years ago.

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Shadow hasn't been in a real game since 06, you can't judge on what you think he is now if there's not proof of it.

YES THANK YOU!!!! plus
I can definitely say Shadow's intentions are usually good. He wants to help his friends or those who have helped him, and apparently now works for G.U.N.. But he himself is probably neutral because he'd be willing to push the boundaries and go to places others like Sonic and co. wouldn't. Like killing people or using deadly force to achieve victory. Sonic would never put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger. Shadow would. So, he pretty much classifies as "Anti-Hero," or neutral. Whichever you prefer.Fairfieldfencer FFF

Shadow&#39;s Neutral 18:38, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

The voices of reason have arrived. Thanks Blaze and Fairfieldfencer. =3

Shadow has appeared in more games than '06, and not once has he done anything Sonic himself wouldn't do.

Of course what was I thinking Sonic would gladly Shoot someone to get what he wantsShadow&#39;s Neutral 18:47, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

You haven't been listening at all! FIVE YEARS!!! Five years since Shadow's even held a gun.

Let me rephrase then: he hasn't been in a mainstream game since 06, all the others were just spinoffs, black knight included, besides that wasn't technically him, it was lancelot. Same with knuckles, that was gawain.

Either way, Shadow now works for G.U.N., and his ultimate goal is to protect the people.

By ANY means necessary. Plus we dont know if he still works for GUN since Sonic 06 technically never happened.

Sonic will protect the people by ANY means necessary. And yes, he still works for G.U.N.

Mainstream: Sonic wouldn't kill anyone. And how do you know he still works for GUN?

Yes no proof show me proof

And because he's an anti-hero, his alignment is neutral.

Edit war
This edit war has gone on for too long, and has resulted in too much incivility. The page has been locked until the issue can be resolved, and until that time Shadow's alignment will not be listed.

There are some specific issues I would like you to consider. Some of you are attempting to shoehorn Sonic characters into very simplistic alignment models (good/evil/neutral). These models are designed to capture a character's motivation, but are rarely appropriate for complex characters or those whose motivation changes over time (as, I would argue, Shadow's has).

Furthermore, this alignment model does not correspond exactly to the hero/anti-hero/villain model that this site also attempts to use, which relates to literary archetypes and the role that they play in the medium. There are more literary archetypes that we have not captured (including, among others, the anti-villain). These all have very specific definitions, that have been wholly ignored during this debate.

Now, as this discussion progresses I want everyone to remain civil with each other. Anyone making personal attacks from this point forward will be blocked. -- Supermorff 10:03, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I personally think he's nowadays to be considered an anti-hero of sorts, but on the side of good, what with him being a GUN Agent and all. Herman2000 11:47, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't you read what "Supermorff" just said? The page's been locked till the community comes to an agreement regarding Shadow's alignment.

Yeah, I agree, he seems to be an anti-hero doing some good deeds but not a knight-in-shining-armor like some of the other characters. ShadowGTR 15:02, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I should probably clarify something from my last post, because a lot of people seem confused. Neutral is not the same thing as anti-hero. Neutral can describe a character's motivation, but requires extensive context so that the word itself becomes meaningless when applied to complex characters. Anti-hero describes a character's role in the story. In its most basic terms, an anti-hero is a protagonist who does good things but does them either for selfish reasons or with morally ambiguous methods. -- Supermorff 17:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

I see, hence the separation of the category and alignment. There may be a correlation between to two but there is a distinction between role and motivation. Thanks for clarifying. ShadowGTR 17:44, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you want a compromise, why not just put his alignment as 'Dark'? It's hard to dispute as it's actually a canonical term. Just a thought. -- Supermorff 17:48, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

It could work, but I can understand that someone can misconstrue 'Dark' as being synonymous with 'Evil', no? What do others think about it? ShadowGTR 17:51, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that's why it can work. I'm just considering possible misunderstandings that people may have. But besides that, I think it's ok. ShadowGTR 18:36, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

This isn't my best idea but maybe just put this alignment at unknown55 skcoR dzalB 20:55, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

(I've been away too long.)

(Thanks, ShadowGTR, for being subtle in your insults for once)

So, everyone here actually believes Shadow is "Dark"? Weird how as soon as compromise comes up, everyone completely forgets me, the guy who single-handedly fought the war on the side of Shadow being a good guy, the guy who, yet again, knew he was up against all odds but refuses to back down, the guy who came up with the compromise "he used to be a bad guy, but isn't anymore". Why didn't that work? Is there something wrong with that statement? Are you saying Shadow's still a bad guy? Did Shadow not join G.U.N.? Is Shadow still mercilessly killing people? Is Shadow even killing people at all?

A lot of you are saying that Shadow will still selfishly do anything for his motives. Tell me, what are his motives nowadays? He no longer cares about his past, he no longer wants revenge on humanity. Shadow is either working directly for G.U.N., protecting the people, or saving one of his friends. Does that in anyway sound selfish to you? So I guess he can't be an Anti-Hero, which is pretty much what I've been saying all along.

I'm getting tired of this, and (don't take this the wrong way) I think you people need to open your eyes, and give Shadow some credit.

-SalaComMander

we're not sayin shadow is evil, we're sayin that he would, more often than not, perform a moraly questionable act if viewed as the best course of action. that is why he is labled an anti-hero or a dark hero. as apposed to sonic who would only do such thing's if there was no other way Sledge The  Hedgehog  00:01, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Why do you keep taking stabs at me? I wasn't even referencing you at all! And again, no one's saying Shadow is evil, I even said that before. ShadowGTR 00:04, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

For one thing Shadow has only worked for GUN in one game which technically never happened so he never worked for GUN. Also, lets remember Sonic Rivals where he cared for Eggman. In Chronicles, he just tried to kill Sonic and his group to get his friend, which is someone who would destroy anything for REVENGE!!!! And he also tried to kill Sonic and friends to get Emerl. And he tried to kill Sonic and his friends to actvate the Eclispse Canon. And he also tried to kill Sonic for a Chaos Emerald in a possible boss fight. And he tried to waste Sonic and friends to get to Eggman. And he tried to kill Sonic and friends to find Rouge (Jewel Thief) and Eggman. And he tried to waste Sonic and friends to find Eggman....NEGA!!!!Riot\AU 03:12, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

________________________________

You're not saying Shadow is evil, but you're denying the fact that he's good. If Sonic was faced with a choice where more good could be accomplished from performing a "morally questionable" act than performing a...not-so morally questionable act, he would obviously go for the choice that has the best outcome.

I'm sorry ShadowGTR, but "possible misunderstandings that people may have" and "I can understand that someone can misconstrue 'Dark' as being synonymous with 'Evil'" seem to be stabs at me.

Shadow still works for G.U.N., the problem is, Shadow hasn't appeared in a "main" story game since '06. Need proof of his current employment? "Dark Rider: Personalized red and black G.U.N. motorcycle with jet boosters." So Shadow just stole a motorcycle and took the time to customize it himself?

As for Sonic Rivals, if Eggman sent Sonic a distress signal, Sonic would've done the same thing. Despite the fact that Sonic's a good guy and Eggman's a bad guy, Sonic doesn't want Eggman dead, and neither does Shadow

As for Sonic Chronicles, Shadow never claimed he was going to kill Sonic, nor did he intend to. Shadow's friend (who doesn't really care about Eggman anymore, after the events of Sonic Heroes) was in danger, and Shadow wasn't going to let anyone prevent his rescue.

In Sonic Battle, Shadow, again, never claimed he was going to kill anyone. Besides, Sonic Battle takes place before his own game, so it's not worth talking about. Same with Sonic Adventure 2.

He's never tried to "waste" Sonic and his friends for Eggman Nega. He hates Eggman Nega more than he hates Eggman.

-SalaComMander

I'm not denying the fact he's done good either because of both you and others have stated numerous times. I think it's because I tend to focus more on his motivations for doing them rather than the actions themselves. And although I disagree with the Sonic point, I won't go into it as Supermorff said we shouldn't shoehorn other characters in. As for you thinking those were stabs at you, I'm sorry you thought that and congrats on your consideration for adminship. ShadowGTR 04:57, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well Shadow's motivation for doing things is (I believe I've pointed this out) to protect the people.

And thank you for the congratulations.

-SalaComMander

No prob. I'd say it's something more than just that, but then again, that's what the consensus is for. ShadowGTR 20:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

except that in 06 he is a hero.

Yep55 skcoR ezalB 13:57, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is absolutely everyone agreed? My understanding is that the current idea is put 'Dark' down as Shadow's alignment and nothing else. Is that correct, and does everyone agree? -- Supermorff 22:54, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with it, but if this keeps up, only bad will come from it.

-SalaComMander


 * If you disagree, then make an amendment to the suggestion that is acceptable to you and that everyone else can agree with. To be very helpful, put it in the form "The following text should be put into the alignment field of Shadow's character template: Your suggestion". That way everyone knows what they're debating. -- Supermorff 18:28, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

I've done that several times. I think the alignment should be "Good (formerly Neutral)"

-SalaComMander

UUUUUhhhhhh.....Hey dudes! 14:24, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

"The Miracle of Love"?
I found this in the "Amy Rose" section of Shadow's article:

"During Shadow the Hedgehog (video game), Shadow can choose to assist Amy in helping find Cream and have her fight alongside the player during the stage and in the boss battle, but this time, there is no reward in return. During this stage level is the route to an unlockable stage that is titled, "The Miracle of Love" if you allow Shadow to comply to Amy's plea to save the world, which changes the story from dark to hero story, as listed under the, "Unlockable Stage Levels" in the Shadow the Hedgehog Game Guide. This access to the stage is through player's choice and does not affect the storyline."

I've played Shadow the Hedgehog, and never heard of this 'unlockable stage'. -- Shelly ' the ' Hedgehog  I'm not a monkey! 04:04, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Graaahhhhh!!! That's pure fanon Shelly!! I've been dealing with that for a long time now!!! *curls up in corner emo* My admin abilities are slipping...--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500"> 'round ~ 04:17, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I KNEW IT!!!!! *throws computer out the window* Dagnabbit!!! -- Shelly ' the ' Hedgehog  I'm not a monkey! 04:25, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I've been failing my duties as an admin.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500"> 'round ~ 04:34, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

* slaps with purse* Don't say that! Every admin/beaurecrat has their bad days, including me! You can do better, you just need to set your mind to it! -- Shelly ' the ' Hedgehog  I'm not a monkey! 04:50, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

I to have been seeing alot of vandles. Iv been doing my best but they just keep coming and coming. There like a virus, they come and change everything into them selfs (Fanon writers making more fanon). And what makes me even more angry is that when they first come they get a message that says no mainspace fanon. Then theres the asshole who just like to fuck things up. This wiki is going to hell.

06:31, February 19, 2010 (UTC)