Sonic News Network:Community Portal

This is a place where you can post ideas for articles and projects.

Current Projects

 * One of the things that this wiki most needs are pages about each level from each Sonic game. A good example are those from Shadow the Hedgehog, see Shadow the Hedgehog (game).
 * The Shadow the Hedgehog stages have been taken care of for the most part, but some information (especially Rankings scores) are still required.

General Information

 * We have a character infobox template, aptly named Template:Character, and a game template, Template:Infobox CVG. These should be used on all major character and game pages, respectively. Usage instructions are on the template pages. They will not automatically work by copying the Wikipedia infoboxes, but it should be easy to convert Wikipedia's infoboxes to ours. If you have questions about either template, please leave a message on the template talk page, or contact FerralMoonrender.

Ongoing Discussions
Flashfire here (aKa. Will the Echidna) I'm wondering whether fan-made images would pass for Userpages and fanfics. I have an Image of Will on my PC, but I don't know whether to put it up on the wikiFlashfire212 02:54, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Fan-images and fictions appear to be allowed just so long as they're in userspace and not the articles themselves.Fair field fencer F F F  08:56, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Character Categories
I'm proposing the changing / merging / adding of several character Categories as I feel a number are overly specific (apply to too few characters), overly generic (apply to too many characters to the point of being pointless) and have long cumbersome names. My proposed changes can be described as Character Ability Purpose, Character Primary Ability Type, and a more general Character Other Characteristics. Character Purpose is what the character's overall abilities are geared toward and is based off of Sonic Chronicles and modified slightly. Since all the characters seem to be based around a primary gimmick, Character Primary Ability Type is to list that gimmick (based off of descriptions often used of them), which is something they excel in way more than others and are most well known for - only 1 should be listed because then every character would get nearly every Category listed (for example, ALL of the playable "characters have 'superhuman speed but by making the Category about "in comparison to the other characters in the series", a character with Knuckles's superhuman speed is nothing compared to the speed of a speed type like Sonic / Shadow). The "Other" section is just because a lot of Categories seem like they can be described better or merged down to one. *edit: added affected Categories under proposed new Categories*

Character Ability Purpose (choose one):


 * Fighter Class Character - characters who are fighters; Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow
 * Support Class Character - characters who are who support the fighters; Tails, Cream
 * Shifter Class Character - characters who shift between Fighter Class and Support Class; Rouge, Amy
 * Leader Class Character - characters who lead other characters or are generally "in charge", they may lead on battlefields or from behind desks; Eggman, the President, Black Doom
 * Civilian Class Character - characters who do not participate in fighting; Maria, Vanilla

Character Primary Ability Type (choose one):


 * Speed Type Character - characters who specialize in high speed in comparison to other characters; Sonic, Shadow, Metal Sonic
 * Category:Characters who can move at superhuman speeds
 * Flight Type Character - characters who specialize in flight; Tails, Rouge, Charmy
 * Category:Characters who can fly
 * Strength Type Character - characters who specialize in great strength in comparison to other characters; Knuckles, Vector, Big
 * Category:Characters with superhuman strength
 * Weapon(s) Type Character - characters who specialize in using one or more weapons in comparison to other characters; Omega, Fang, Amy
 * Category:Characters Who Use Explosives
 * Special Type Character - characters who specialize in using some special ability (excludes Chaos Powers); Silver, Blaze, Espio, Mephiles
 * Category:Characters who can teleport
 * Category:Characters Who Can Distort Time
 * Intelligence Type Character - characters who have no physical skill but are skilled strategists in comparison to other characters, often leaders; Eggman, the President

Character Other Characteristics (choose all that apply):


 * Element Guardian - characters who are guardians of an element or elements (such as other characters, locations, items); Knuckles, Blaze, Chaos
 * Creator - characters who create / invent; Eggman, Tails, Wave
 * Creations - characters who are created; Shadow, Biolizard, Omega
 * Category:Artificial intelligences
 * Category:Experiments Gone Wrong
 * Energy Harnesser - characters and machines that can harness the powers of the Chaos Emeralds or other such items (Super Transformation, Chaos Control, etc); Shadow, Sonic, Eggman's machine in Sonic Advance 3, Blaze
 * Category:Chaos Energy
 * Category:Burning Transformation
 * Category:Super-Transformation
 * Category:Super Transfomation
 * Category:Super transformations
 * Hunter - characters who are treasure hunters, bounty hunters, or hunters in general
 * Category:Bounty Hunters

This is more just some starting ideas, not a fully fleshed out proposal. Thoughts? Sonic saiyan 19:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Which categories specifically are you citing problems with (besides Category:Characters who can move at superhuman speeds)? Could you provide a list (with links) to those that you've having the biggest problem with? (I.e. which categories are you trying to replace with the system you've proposed here?)
 * In general, I agree that there are several categories that aren't particularly useful and could be excised. There are some very good ideas to take out of your proposed system, but there are some things that would need to be tweaked before implementing. My biggest concern is the level of subjectivity in these categories. When you were listing them, for example, why did you make Eggman a "Leader Class Character" when he was a "Shifter Class" in Sonic Chronciles? -- Supermorff 20:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll need some time to compile the list, it would include any that would be redundant with what my proposal would make. As for the determining which character fits which category, I think it should be more about what characteristic is most prominent in that category section (I explained above that the characters seemed designed around one very prominent characteristic which also seems to define their purpose). For example, Eggman was listed as a 'Shifter' in Chronicles, but I deemed him a 'Leader Class' because he is more well known for leading his robots and generally doesn't fight hand to hand or support other characters like a Shifter Class as defined above, Omega has super strength but is more well known for using his weapons to shoot things and blow stuff up so he is Weapons Type, Amy is often described in games as Speed character but her speed is nothing next to a Sonic or Shadow, and she is very well known for her Piko-Piko Hammer so she is Weapons Type (although I am divided on whether she really is Shifter as Chronicles said, or Support since she is not really a good fighter like Rouge and SA2, Unleashed really don't help her case - like I said it's still early). Sonic saiyan 20:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I just added a list of as many affected categories as I could find under what they would be merged into under my proposal in its current form - its not a complete list since I kept finding more after going thru it so I probably missed some. Also there are a lot more I think should done differently but there are just so many. Sonic saiyan 04:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I have removed Category:Living Weapons, since this is actually a category relating to a story arc from the Archie Comics series, not a character category. I will think about your ideas and comment later. -- Supermorff 12:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm still thinking this over, but I have some ideas to share. First of all, if the goal is to overhaul the existing category structure (and we're both agreed that this is necessary), then there is little to gain by adding new categorisation. In particular, your "Character Ability Purpose" categories do not affect any existing categories, and so will not help clean up the mess we have at the moment. Therefore I suggest setting those aside for the time being.
 * Second, I don't think that the "Super transformations" category should be merged in with "Chaos Energy" or similar. The "Super transformations" and "Burning transformations" categories specifically refer to the powered forms of those characters - not to characters with the ability to transform. Still, it might clear things up if those were merged together. "Category:Powered forms" might not be a bad place to do it. The other ones you mentioned could be combined into a "Category:Energy harnessers" or similar, but by this point they might not need to be.
 * The suggested members of the category you have provisionally called "Element Guardians" are all in fact "Emerald Guardians". Maybe that's worth a category itself, or maybe not.
 * Same of the problem with the speed and strength categories as they are now stems from the wording in the category title. The categories are over full because the characters are being compared to a human norm. That seems a bit silly. But rather than assigning each character a "type", it might just be worth upping the threshold a bit with a name change. For example "super speed" or "supersonic speed" rather than "superhuman speed", perhaps?
 * Let me know if this sparks any ideas in you (or, hey, anyone else). I'll keep thinking on it. -- Supermorff 01:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * • Putting the Purpose CATS aside for now is fine, I just felt like they would be a good addition to the generalized definition of the character - going hand in hand with the ability type (so listing a character like Amy as a 'weapons type' wouldn't put her on the level as one like Omega).
 * • You're right, the Transformations thing was actually bothering me too because it felt like I was forgetting something - and I was: I wasn't thinking of the non-Super Transformations at the time I was making it. I guess a good fix is both a "Category:Transformations" and a "Category:Energy Harnesser", both go on templates for characters who harness energy to transform and only the Transformation CAT for those who don't use energy to transform. How's that idea?
 * • I like the "Element Guardians" because there are few overall guardians of anything so keeping this generalized seems like a good idea. This way the CAT also covers Chaos also being guardian of the Chao, and in some continuities, Knuckles being guardian of the whole of Angel Island (even though the games seem to make him consider the island a prison he loves escaping from), it even includes the Babylon Guardian, who guarded no Emeralds.
 * • Although I'm not attached to the actual names I used above, I still feel that defining what 'type' of character they are is best. Other attributes outside of their big gimmick tend to be erratic and can lead to confusing categorization - where characters, who do not belong being listed alongside others who specialize in something, get listed there (for example Shadow's strength is being listed next to Knuckles who specializes in strength). Naming it 'super speed' or 'super strength' might continue the current problem of being overly generalized while 'supersonic speed' is problematic as only Sonic is confirmed to be supersonic (for example: Sonic is described as being able to only slightly surpass mach 1 in Sonic Jam, and there are some sources that describe Shadow as being slower than Sonic, so what if Shadow is at the uppermost subsonic or transonic speed which still rivals Sonic without being supersonic, while Jet might be able to hit hypersonic with his Extreme Gear - I don't think anything is confirmed with Extreme Gear speeds - also if this concept were taken into the Archie series where would Mina Mongoose go?), also there is no way of applying such a specific definition to super strength. If characters were categorized by type, then characters (like Shadow) can have other notable abilities (like his strength) listed in their abilities section where it is better described anyway. Sonic saiyan 21:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Regarding the "Transformations" cats, I'm not sure I understand your point. The current category is well defined and an appropriate size: it contains only the alternate powered forms of various characters. I don't think it needs to be split into multiple categories. It might (possibly) benefit from a new name, but I don't think that's a priority right now.
 * As for "Energy Harnessers", that should only include characters who have an inherent ability to harness or manipulate energy (e.g. Chaos Energy). Some of the powered forms would also be included in this category, as would Sonic and Shadow (both of whom have used Chaos Control in the past) and that's about it.
 * I just don't like the word "Elements" because it doesn't mean anything, and yet it sounds like it should. If you wanted a general category for people who guard things, why not just call it "Category:Guardians"?
 * I do see what you mean about over-generalization of categories, which makes them effectively useless. Frankly, I think the best thing might just be to delete all the "Ability", "Equipment" or "Type" categories and be done with it. As you said, abilities will be listed on the page anyway. How useful would it be to categorise them? I think not very. -- Supermorff 22:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry I wasn't clear: I meant transformations that use energy (like Chaos Energy or Sol Emerald Energy)get both categories (Energy Harnesser and Transformation); while transformations that do not use such energies just get one category (transformations) - it's not a split, transformations covers all from Super Forms to FinalHazard while Energy Harnessers gets added to Super Forms but not FinalHazard. Energy Harnesser also goes to non-Super forms that harness energy like Chaos Control - all Energy Harnessers are harnessing energy - some for transformations and some for other things. Maybe this does over-complicate it.
 * I guess just "Guardians" is ok, as long as it is clear that it is any type of guardian.
 * Although I have no problem eliminating them entirely, I strongly doubt others using this Wiki would want that - I was trying to just propose changes to what already exists. Sonic saiyan 22:56, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems to me as though the two of us tend to agree on this, although it would be great to have some other input on it. To test the water, I've tagged a couple of the most ridiculous categories for deletion (telekinesis, use of piko piko hammer, and invisibility). I guess we'll see what the consensus is soon. -- Supermorff 00:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

These are all good considerations, and, indeed, I'm somewhat bowled over by the amount of thought and effort that's been put in. Good show. It makes my proposal seem almost retarded by comparison, but still, here we go:


 * Category:Characters
 * Category:Transformations

AND THAT'S IT. "What madness is this?!" you might ask. But we have to remember that whatever category system we put in place will be used by people after we pack up and move on. It has to be one simple enough that n00bs aren't dissuaded from editing by its intricy. In short, it has to be idiot proof. And the schemes outlined above incorporate a vast quantity of subjective latitude for dispute and acrimony. Por ejemplo: one could argue that Eggman is a Speed class character because he outruns Sonic during the sequence in Death Egg during Sonic 2. And what are you going to do when you get to Sir Gawain, who is a fighter... and a strength... and a weapons... and yadda yadda yadda.

Essentially, we all have more useful work we could be doing on this wiki than dealing with the confusion which a system of such complexity would inevitably bring. Sure, I think I get the gist of it having looked at the proposals for the last 20 minutes, but an open wiki of this sort inevitably sees a constant turnover of newbies who will not have read the Best Use Guidelines on whatever we decide in the end, will shift the categories around based on misunderstanding the intricate nature thereof, and then we'll spend half our time correcting their idiocy when we could be doing something useful like adding new content.

Which is why I vote for just 2 categories. Simplicity is, alas, a dire necessity. The Doctor... IS IN Molten Scandium  02:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, we've already got "Characters by Species" and "Characters by Gender", both of which are pretty non-subjective (although frankly the "Gender" cats seem fairly pointless to me). We also already categorised characters by continuity, which is an absolute necessity. Or did you mean that the two categories should replace only those listed above? (In that case, I more or less agree.)
 * Sonic saiyan, I've removed the three deleted categories (Piko Piko, invisibility, telekinesis) from your list above. I'll probably try and find some more sparse or bizarre categories to nominate for deletion soon. -- Supermorff 10:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Err...the latter, "just replacing those listed". Canon categorisation is indeed a must. Classifying by gender is, as you say, non-subjective, but I also think unnecessary. Species is a maybe, but I'm wary of the bloated number of one-entry categories it would give us. Category:Crocodile for Vector; Category:Flying Squirrel for Ray... and it'll only get 50 times worse when we start categorising the Archie characters. You try putting Ixis Nagus or any of the vast number of Squirrel/Chipmunk/Hedgehog mongrel hybrid children in sensible species boxes, and you'll go insane. The Doctor... IS IN Molten Scandium  15:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course you're right. Would you support a nomination to delete the gender categories, then? I figure if we want to get rid of them we should move quickly, because people are adding pages to those categories all the time. -- Supermorff 20:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Many thanks for getting on with it so pro-actively! :) Although I'd at least like to make sure the other Bureaucrats know what's going on before anyone does any more drastic category-killing; simply because I know (as I said on the SNN main discussion page) that SLJ himself is personally responsible for a lot of this category bloat. So I'd advise you wait for him to appear and make sure he sees the sense of all this before his own personal category projects get thrown in the shredding machine. I have jabbed him via talk page to come view this discussion. The Doctor... IS IN Molten Scandium  00:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Gotcha. -- Supermorff 11:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Stage 1
It occurs to me that we could talk forever about what we want the category system to eventually look like, and never actually get around to changing it. Therefore, in an effort to be proactive, I would like to suggest a first step: identifying categories that we definitely don't want, and then deleting them. I would personally like to get rid of the following categories, for the following reasons. Feel free to add your own comments or categories. -- Supermorff 10:57, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Category:Alternate Doppelgangers
 * Delete - First, doppelgangers is misspelt, missing the accent over the a. Second, the title is a tautology, since if a character is a "Doppelgänger" then it must be "alternate" by definition. Third, and most important, these characters often have nothing in common, apart from the fact that they aren't the base games/Archie versions. The introduction seems to suggest it is only for alternate versions of Archie characters, but the category isn't used that way. It would be much better to split this category out into the different realities, e.g. Category:Arabian Nights characters, Category:Anti-Mobius characters (or Moebius, if you prefer), etc. I note that Category:Anti-Mobians already exists, but that it has been emptied. Any reason for this? -- Supermorff


 * Haha; it was me! Anti-Mobians was emptied after a discussion I had with FFF, where I argued that Alternate Doppelgangers made Anti-Mobians redundant. You said: these characters often have nothing in common, apart from the fact that they aren't the base games/Archie versions, but I think that is PRECISELY what the category needs to be - a collection of characters who aren't their (narratively) original versions of... themselves. I've got no problem with knocking the category down and rebuilding it with correct spelling and grammar, but it serves its purpose with regard to content, I think. The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  13:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Supermorff's Theory of Wiki Categorization (Lemma): Articles should go in the same category if there is a reasonable expectation that users will want to move quickly from one article in the category to another one. That's what they are useful for, after all. I doubt a user would want to quickly navigate from, say, Sinbad to Scourge the Hedgehog. Maybe they'd want to move from Sinbad to Ali Baba, because those characters exist in the same narrative (but we'd use "Category:Arabian Nights characters" or, more likely, the template that already exists on the page). Maybe they'd want to move from Sinbad to Anti-Knuckles, but then I'd suggest they'd go via Knuckles.
 * Also, aren't Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie) and Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic the Comic) (and others) just doppelgangers of Sonic the Hedgehog (character)? From the current scope of the category, they should be included, but frankly if anyone tries to add them they'll probably get thumped. Possibly by me. -- Supermorff 15:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And another thing (which I've just noticed): this category seems to be a dumping ground for minor characters from Blaze's Sol Dimension, e.g. Captain Whisker, who may resemble Eggman slightly but is not an alternate universe counterpart. While we could easily fix that, it does seem to indicate that this category is subjective, and may not be too easy for new users to grasp. -- Supermorff 15:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say that Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie) and Sonic the Hedgehog (Sonic the Comic) are doppelgangers of Sonic the Hedgehog (character), because they're from different continuities, not different intra-continuity realities. But you make a fair point in that it's not clear enough to be my beloved idiot proof. However I'm not much of a fan of the alternative character-categorisation-by-location, which Category:Arabian Nights characters skirts dangerously close to, because I suspect that Archie (always Archie, screwing with us ;) ) has some characters that used to live in one dimension but now live in another, which would jumble things, AND we'll get torn apart by rabid continuity warriors if we try to classify Eggman Nega by his place of origin.
 * Unfortunatly, a viable alternative as yet eludes me. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  02:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Category:Deceased Characters
 * Delete - I see no benefit to categorising according to whether a character is alive or dead, unless it's to give spoilers before you've even got to the page. Possibly there's more relevance in categorising characters that have died during the course of the story, but that's a bit iffy because they quite often don't stay dead and, in any case, something that happened perhaps once to a character in an unknown continuity under unknown circumstances is not notable. I don't even see the point in listifying in this case, because a lot of flashback characters will have died off-screen or under mundane circumstances. -- Supermorff


 * Seconded. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  02:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It seems I went and killed these BEFORE contributing to the discussion. C'est le vie. But yes; getting a move on does make sense, as we could indeed sit and prevaricate for eons; and whatever we change can always be reverted if someone complains too voiciferously after the fact. I'll add any delete-able looking categories I find in my general snooping to here. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  21:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * FYI, I've nowiki'd the deleted categories, so we don't have a load of red links on the page. I have also added some more categories I've identified. -- Supermorff 11:35, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * On second thoughts, I've just removed from the list any that have already been deleted. No need to bloat this page any more than it already is. I've added some more as well. -- Supermorff 12:18, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Some more musings:

 * Species-categories
 * As discussed somewhere above, I don't think these categorsation by species in micro is such a good idea, because we'll have a billion one-article categories (Category:Crocodiles, Category:Flying Squirrels), and mangled fusions where Archie's 25-years-later characters come into play. My proposal at the moment is perhaps:
 * Category:Characters
 * Sub-Category:Mobians - A composite category which gets us out of the hybridisation mess. Possibly called Category:Anthromorphic animals instead, because technically someone like Blaze or Scourge or Sinbad isn't a Mobian - they hail from dimensions with other names.
 * Sub-Category:Humans - Because there are so many humans, especially after YOU split the Spagonia citizens list into a billion seperate articles ;)
 * Sub-Category:Constructs - Robots, Gizoids, Caliburn
 * Sub-Category:Supernatural beings - Chaos, Illumina, Solaris, King Arthur, Erazor
 * Sub-category:Transformations - Excalibur, Super Tails, Burning Blaze...
 * Sub-Category:Aliens - Black Arms, Xorda, pretty much anyone else

That... might... be general enough to cover everyone? <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  13:29, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have a problem with species categories, in general, but I do agree that not every species needs/should have one (e.g. Crocodiles, as cited). I do think a Hedgehogs category is perfectly reasonable, and Echidnas, and probably a few others. I wouldn't be opposed to a rule saying "Species categories must have at least 4 members or be deleted", or something similarly draconian. (And no hybrid categories, as a matter of course.)
 * In addition, we could create the "anthropomorphic animals" category, and have a select few sub-cats for the more common species, doing away with the confusing "Characters by Species" hub.
 * I do have a problem with "Mobians" as a catch-all category, for the following reasons: First, in Sonic the Comic (for example), Mobians refers to any resident of Planet Mobius and therefore would include Robotnik, while in Archie, it specifically refers to the type of anthropomorphic animals native to that planet and others like it in alternate realities (and Robotnik would be an Overlander). Second, in the modern games Sonic isn't from Mobius, he's from Earth. I don't have a problem with a category for "Characters from Mobius", as long as there is a corresponding category for "Characters from Earth", or perhaps merge both into a "Characters from Sonic's homeworld", but this would exclude characters like Chris Thorndyke, and... Yeah, complex, as you can see.
 * Humans: necessary, especially if I ever decide to split out more list articles. Tee hee.
 * Gizoids are robots, and might as well be a sub-category. Caliburn is already classed as a sword, but I don't know whether Category:Swords should be a sub-cat of Characters or not. What do you think? -- Supermorff 15:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair point with Mobians; my only knowledge of Archie is, essentially, this Wiki, so I wasn't aware that there were already semi-official Mobain naming conventions in place. Plus, I have no desire allow the ugly specter of Mobius / Earth to rear it's head; especially as I'd be diametricly opposed to you and maintain that the planet Sonic lives on in 'all the games IS Mobius. So I think "Characters from Sonic's world" would indeed be a very diplomatic naming choice; though I'd prefer "Anthromorphic animals" - despite being a mouthful, it lets us throw Blaze in, and also saves us from stirring up the argument of whether Silver comes from Sonic's future or some sort of alternate dimension...


 * MOVING ON; with regard to more Crocodile/Squirrel/Hedgehog/Echidna-specific categorisation; I would LIKE to keep the main Hedgehog / Echidna ones, but at the same time I live in fear that allowing any by-microspecies categorisation will have every n00b thinking "Hey, Sonic's classified as a Hedgehog, I'd better classify Vector as a Crocodile!" And then the one-article categories will spring back up like weeds. We'd be setting ourselves a never-ending job of micro-category policing. So I feel sacrificing the major ones is a sacrifice we have to make to save us from a flood of micro-ones.


 * Category:Swords should be a sub-category of Category:Objects, not Cat:Characters, because only Caliburn (and possibly Excalibur) are sentient ones. The reason I suggested Category:Constructs was because I feel that the Robots / Gizoids / E-series / Badniks structure we have now is just as bad, if not worse, than Mobians in terms of hybridism. When is a badnik not a robot, and when is an E-series a badnik? Blah, blah, blah. Constructs sweeps all this away.


 * IN GENERAL, I'm in favour of a few large categories over many small ones. Main reason is to avoid precisely the confusions we've been outlining above (because you and I might hammer out a technically precise system of categorisation and notation here, but your average Wiki user is never going to read it). Secondly; lots of not-immediatly-obvious micro-categories makes it easier and easier for people writing articles to miss out ones that should be there, only creating YET MORE housekeeping work for those of us who do know the arcane conventions.


 * So once more: idiot proofing. ALWAYS idiot proofing. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  17:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Right then. Let's scrap the Characters from Mobius/Earth/Sonic's world idea. It sucks. Bad. Category:Anthropomorphic animals is fine by me, but I still feel that we shouldn't get rid of the Hedgehog/Echidna/other common species categories. At least not yet. If we find a Crocodile cat reappearing, then we can consider changing the system, but let's wait and see first. That said, I am going to get rid of the uncommon ones as soon as I have finished typing this response.
 * I don't like the word "Constructs". That's my only real objection to your proposal. But I also like having different categories for the Megadrive-era badniks and the more recent E-Series. They could all quite easily go in "Robots", though.
 * I'll go fix Swords now too. -- Supermorff 18:44, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * While writing on Category talk:Swords I was hit by a kind of epiphany. What we do here will not be set in stone, and we can always change it AS WE GO if we run across problems we didn't consider (which I think we inevitably will anyway). Accordingly: fine. Let's try it your way. Species with, say, 5 or more members get a sub-category within Anthromorphic animals.
 * Although what should we do about the less-common ones? Just stick them in the parent Anthromorphic animals directory? Or create an additional sub-category Less common species and throw all the flying squirrels and crocodiles in there? I understand that violates your "Related articles in the same category" maxim, but at the same time I fear that if someone sees Vector's page categorised Anthromorphic animal, and then sees Sonic's page with just Hedgehogs, they'll glue Anthromorphic animal to the Blue Blur as well, and we'd end up with the entire category tree all the way back up to "Characters" getting plastered all over everyone.
 * (We may want a sub-category Hybrids, too?)
 * With regard to Constructs; if you can think up a better word, feel free. It's just Caliburn that screws everything up, 'cos if not for him then Category:Robots would cover everything even vaguely artificial that's appeared in the series so far (I think). Although I understand (and, indeed, share) your desire to sub-categorise Robots, where does one draw the line? Seriously, where does a robot like SCR-HG become a badnik? Organic batteries? But then what about the Megadrive-era bots that DIDN'T use animal critters (i.e. the ones in the Master System games that had nothing pop out; or how about the ones in Chaotix that had "depleted rings" pop out)? And the early E-Series like Gamma DID have organic batteries, so... yeah. Confusion, idiot-proofing, and all that noise I usually spout. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  00:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * They should definitely just be in the parent cat, at least for now. If there's mass confusion, we change it. Similarly, no category for hybrids unless people start moving things out of "anthropomorphic animals" or into irrelevant categories or something. A paragraph at the top of each category explaining the system is a must. Something along the lines of "Articles in this category (Hedgehog, e.g.) need not (or should not) be included in Category:Anthropomorphic animals". Something.
 * I'll need to think more about the robot cats, although my gut reaction (which I appreciate is probably not an adequate distinction) is that "badniks" only includes enemy robots from the 2D games. But I'll think more. -- Supermorff 00:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You've probably noticed that I made the Category:Anthropomorphic animals, and deleted Category:Characters by Species. It's not quite full yet, though, because I couldn't face trawling through Category:Mobians. Frankly, I don't even know how we're going to deal with that category. I see three options:
 * We delete Category:Mobians, and move everything into Category:Anthro
 * We use Category:Mobians for any character from Mobius (thereby opening ourselves up to terrible problems with the Earth/Mobius/Sonic's world issues), and put any animal character from Mobius into both categories.
 * We make Category:Mobians a subcat of Category:Anthro, but make it specifically refer to the characters from the Archie comic series and their specific definition of the term.
 * Also, at some point we will need to decide whether or not to move pages out of the base Category:Characters if they are in one or more of the subcategories. I vote yes on this, because Category:Characters has become pretty useless for finding anything you're looking for, although I do see the benefit of having every character tagged as a character. Opening up for discussion in three... two... one... -- Supermorff 20:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

General Categorisation
OK then. I'll admit right off that I hoped never to have to get involved in the issue of category standardisation (my preferred method of Wiki contribution being uploading new content), but the silliness in the category-world in general has started impeding my work while I'm trying to create new articles. So let's have a stab at ironing out what categories should be allowed to exist, not just for characters.

As a category / subcategory tree pertaining to Games, for a start:
 * Category:Games
 * Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings
 * Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings Media (as opposed to Images, giving us scope for videos too)
 * Category:Sonic and the Black Knight
 * Category:Sonic and the Black Knight Media (same rationale)

(I considered "Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings Characters" and "Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings Levels", but I don't think it would work. For starters, if it's a level and it's categorised in "Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings", it's pretty obvious that it's a Sonic and the Secret Rings level. Also, I'm considering making "Locations" a kinda category tree; see below. Secondly, with regard to Characters, it's actually very rare to find a game-specific character - the SatSR and SatBK are the only ones in recent time that have them in any great number. On the CONVERSE, can you imagine what Sonic's category bar would look like, with a category for every game he's been in? It'd take up more space than the article itself!)

With regard to other canons, perhaps something like:
 * Category:SatAM/Archie
 * Category:SatAM episodes (If someone writes an article about a specific episode)
 * Category:SatAM media ''(I.e. "TV stills")
 * Category:Archie issues (We already HAVE some of these)
 * Category:Archie media (I.e. "Archie comics scans")
 * Category:SatAM/Archie characters (By-canon characterisation discussed in the preceeding section)

And as mentioned, Locations; classing them by GEOGRAPHY as opposed to game (a subtle difference):
 * Category:Locations
 * Category:Space
 * Category:Mobius/Earth
 * Category:Moebius (For the Archie fans ;) )
 * Category:Arthurian dimension
 * Category:Arabian dimension
 * Category:Maginarywhirl (The dimension of Sonic Shuffle, for those of you not in the know)
 * Category:Minor dimensions (e.g. Twilight Cage, Special Stage)
 * Category:Game stages

This is just my preliminary musing (And the trees aren't even VAGUELY complete: they're just there for illustrative purposes of the kind of structure planned). Feel free to rip it to shreads if you spot even a minor potential for flaw. Remember, the category tree has to be both Idiot proof and able to slot-in additions as and when new games / series get produced. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  12:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to try really hard to hold back on some of the things I want to say regarding the names of categories, and restrict myself to responding to your specific comments (i.e. which categories should exist).
 * Games cats: Obviously Category:Games exists and should exist. This category (and all its subcats) should only contain game articles. If you want to separate various content articles according to the game they relate to, then categories like Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings should go in a hub category called something like Category:Content by game.
 * Category:Sonic and the Secret Rings images is fine, I think. I also don't see any problem with letting videos have their own category, if there are enough of them (say, three or more).
 * I would be quite happy having a "levels" or "stages" category, not because it won't be obvious that it is a level from a certain game, but because it's pointless using two categories when one will do.
 * I agree that "characters by game" would cause too many problems. You could do a "characters by game in which they first appear", but these categories would often be so small as to be actively unhelpful.
 * As for the games categories themselves, I think they might as well be categorised by platform/system. I'm happy for them to be split up according to whether they're in the main series or spin-offs, but only if we can demonstrate that this is not a subjective distinction (as I suspect it is).


 * Other canons: Episodes/issues, images, videos, characters, then general articles in the parent cat. Fine. Although images should not be a subcat of issues. (Incidentally, there are already articles for same SatAM episodes. They're at Category:Sonic the Hedgehog (TV series) episodes.)


 * Locations: If you want to break Locations down by geography, that's fine, although completely rejecting the idea of a "locations by continuity" system is less fine. Also, locations categories should contain the world "locations" or similar (e.g. "stages"). If you want to break down content by location, as suggested for games above, that's fine too.


 * There's more to say but it can wait. -- Supermorff 15:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Names: With regard to the names; I'd have no intention of actually calling a category "SatAM" in the final version of things. I'm sure the series does have a real name, somewhere... These are all just illustrative.
 * Game cats: Categorising the games by console is a fine idea.
 * Videos/images/media: You're probably right with regard to the videos. I suppose if there's only one or two videos, we can throw them in the appropriate image category. Who's gonna complain, really?
 * Locations: I have, in the intervening hours, managed to talk myself out of my own categorising-by-geography idea. Locations / Game stages remains a thorny and indistinct issue that I'm going to have to muse about some more...
 * My general feeling on locations-by-canon is that the idea has merit, but in many cases there isn't really enough content to justify splitting articles in two along canon lines. We don't need something like Oil Ocean Zone (Sonic the Comic) when we could just slip in a "Sonic the Comic" section in the main Oil Ocean Entry (Sonic and Tails visited Oil Ocean in Issue 7 of STC, Super Sonic, Aquis, etc. etc., see main article). <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  16:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't need two articles in order to categorize something in two different places. But, hey, at least now I know that somebody's reading my STC edits. -- Supermorff 17:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm totally not in the mood to read a debate over categories for an hour, so, I'll just propose this:
 * Category: Characters
 * Sub-Categories:
 * Hedgehogs, and various other species, such as Foxes, Echidnas, Robots, Humans etc.
 * Game Characters, Sonic Underground Characters, Sonic X Characters, et al.
 * Heroes, Villains, Anti-Heroes
 * Possibly Characters With Super Speed, and other abilities. It's a maybe, as it is a little irrelevant. The same goes for Males, and Females.
 * Bounty Hunters, G.U.N., etc. for all occupations.
 * Super-Transformations
 * I see relevance for having a seperate category for each game, or arc of the shows, or comics. (IE: Category:Sonic Unleashed (For Sonic Unleashed), and Category:Bold New Moebius (For Archie Sonic the Hedgehog Issue 189.) Though, these would only be used on articles for characters, items, places, etc. that only appear in that one game / arc.
 * I also relevance in categories such as Category:Future, Past, Experiments, etc. But I'll leave it all up for a consenus, though a good-ol' clean-up would be nice. <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  22:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

"I'm totally not in the mood to read a debate over categories for an hour"

Well, I can see that, given that several of your proposals have been dismissed as unworkable above due to subjectivity, hybridism, and bloat in general. :/

Anyone know if it's possible to tweak the categorisation tree so that a category is a subcategory of more than one parent category? 'Cos if it is, I think that makes the job easier... <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  00:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you can. Not sure. Sorry. I'm just not in the mood this week. /: Really don't feel like wasting my time reading something that will likely through me in the can. :P <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  01:02, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I understand the question. You know that categories can have more than one parent cat, right? If you mean Special:CategoryTree, then whichever category you select as your base will have all of its immediate parents listed, as well as its direct descendents. Is that what you mean? -- Supermorff 01:04, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You know that categories can have more than one parent cat, right?
 * That was indeed my question, and now I DO know. This makes things slightly easier in my conceptions; thanks. I'mma go muse some more. :) <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  01:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * After actually reading some of this, I'm highly enjoying Molten's first post of this section. My only concern; Capitalization. These are titles. Titles have the first letter of each word capitalized. That is all. I'll leave you two to handel the situation, since I am obsessive, and over-done with making categories. <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  20:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WOO! Carte-blanche! :D <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  21:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, using German on the American boy is so funny. <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  22:48, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that one's French, actually... still, it IS funny, yes. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  01:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * http://www.thevancouverite.com/pictures/evangeline-lilly-vancouver-.jpg <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  01:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

iRreGulaR caPitaLisaTionZ

 * Not to rock the boat, but I completely disagree about category titles being in Title Case All The Time. It looks ugly and wrong to me. As does capitalisation of parentheticals (e.g. (Character) in Sonic the Hedgehog (Character)) and of words like "and" and "the" (e.g. in Sonic And The Secret Rings). A quick look at the box art in the latter case will make it clear that it should be Sonic and the Secret Rings. -- Supermorff 11:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point, mate. However, according to proper American grammer, all words in titles should be caps'd, or rather that's how my failure of an elementary school taught. Could be wrong. It was voted the 'Dumbest Elementary School In New York', by popular newspaper, Newsday. <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  19:51, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, not being American I can't really comment on how Americans usually do things. Whoever designed the box art for SatSR is still probably the authority on what the correct format should be in that case. In general, though, I go with Wikipedia naming conventions (in particular see their rules on capitalization), mostly because they have a lot more people who have been thinking about this and refining it for quite a long time. I have completely forgotten what we were supposed to be talking about. -- Supermorff 20:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alas, we are not Wikipedia, and we do things differently. Cause we suck more. :P
 * Anyways, this is another interesting debate for us to bring about, and could prove quite useful. <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  21:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

You were supposed to be talking about how I got HORRIBLY EDIT CONFLICTED. But here I try again: I'm with Morff. Irrespective of convention, the product box is where we should take our cues. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  13:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Image Galleries
This is something that's irritated me for a while. Image galleries. I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG THOSE IMAGE GALLERIES. They're pretty irrelevant, and sometimes, repetitive. (See: Sonic the Hedgehog (Character), Shadow the Hedgehog, E-123 Omega, Amy Rose, etc.) I believe that they should only be used for games, episodes, and issues, to help depict more of such topics environment, setting, etc. And only a few, if any. They shouldn't be used to show-case loads of 'Prettyful arties', but to add relevance. Which they don't. If an article needs an image, place it were it belongs. If it doesn't fit, don't throw it there as 'Image Gallery'. Opinions? <font color="#BF00FF"> SLJCO <font color="#CCFF00"> AAATR <font color="#6050DC"> So <font color="#C71585"> ul  21:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is that, at the moment, the image galleries are the only place you can find all (or nearly all) the pictures we have of Sonic. Otherwise you have to search through the image categories for each game or TV series until you find one you like. There are other options than just deleting. For example, I've seen other wikis categorise their pictures according to every single character that appears in them. Frankly, this is a ghastly idea and there's no way we should do it here, but that's an example. We could also make new pages for the galleries, e.g. Sonic the Hedgehog (gallery) just for the pictures, and then link out from the main page. Or, better yet, we could make a new Gallery: namespace for all these pages (I don't know how to do this, but there must be a way). -- Supermorff 12:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think they're quite nice, personally; and, as Morff says, potentially very useful. By all means, cull the repetitions (there's about 10 images all from '06 on Sonic's) and arrange them in a systematic manner, but pics of Sonic's various character models from progressive games lets you see the design variations in a far more comprehensive fashion than a texty paragraph would. <font color="#FE2712">The Doctor... IS IN <font color="#000000">Molten <font color="#B8860B">Scandium  13:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Result:
The creation of Sonic News Network:Fan Fiction, now the active official policy. Any future discussion of the fanfic policy should take place at Sonic News Network talk:Fan Fiction.

Archive of the discussion:
Recently fan fictional content has become an issue of controversy. There are two different issues that we are dealing with: In the first case, fanfic is being written, while in the second case it is being written about. The policy here has previously been that fan fiction that is written here must be kept in a user's own space (i.e. User:username/pagename), but that fanfic which has a large following outside of SNN may be written about, because it is deemed, as I always say "notable in the Sonic community." An example of this would be the "Power of Nazo" and "Nazo Unleashed" series, which are written about on the Nazo page. This policy has been criticized, so I am starting this general discussion so that we may decide upon a new policy, because this is a wiki, and policy is determined by consensus.
 * Fanfic which is created here by SNN users.
 * Fanfic which exists elsewhere and has been written about here.

Several possible solutions (please feel free to suggest more) include:
 * Creating a "Fanfic:" namespace and restricting all fanfic (both types) to that
 * Not allowing any of either type of fanfic in the mainspace
 * Keeping the old policy and having discussions about what qualifies as "notable" fanfic

Please Note: Please do not go around warring over the fan related pages. The pages Nazo and Ashura have been protected (only administrators can edit them), and will remain protected until this discussion is over, and any other pages which become controversial will also be protected.

Also Please Note: Fanfic is allowed in the forums and in userspace, and always will be. That is not up for debate. Editing or deleting what other users have written in the forums or in their userspace will result in being temporarily block from editing this wiki.

Please discuss your opinions below, and remember to sign your posts with four tildes (type ~). ~ FerralMoonrender 04:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Fanfics shouldn't be allowed as a wiki like this should have fact, not fan-made fiction. Let users write there stories in their userspace, since that isn't actually in an article. But the articles should have fact.<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  09:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I do think we should have fan articles that have major importance to the Sonic society, like Nazo Unleashed being linked to Nazo without putting info of the series on Nazo's page since Nazo is to be strictly factual. However, there are fanfics not of major concern to Sonic that are only said to be actually part of the series, like (I think) that Bobby Blabby page, and most certainly that Sonic Riders Adventure2 name mess-up thing. I also think there should be an area where we can share our fanfics with the community since you can't do that and go through each user's respective page through special pages, although they can't have any actual relevance to related articles in those related articles, know what I mean? Enzeru 16:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep, FerralMoonrender... You pretty much said the truth right there. In my opinion, sorry to disappoint, but I don't think a specific section on a Wiki is a good idea. We are trying to make a resource here, and even though it has its own section, a fanfic section might be mistaken by some newbie for fact, and that could be dangerous. Anyway, there are other sites out there for fanfics. If you want it here, make it on your userpage. See you all around... 21:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Fanfictions should NOT be allowed. This is a Wiki, and is an encyclopedia. That means nothing but fact. Look in a real encyclopedia, do you see a chapter for a fanfiction about the history of how God was created? No. Fact. That is what we need. And the main problems are:
 * 1. These fanfictions are being treated as real games, which is confusing to passing visitors, who don't know much about the series.
 * 2. They're being thrown into character articles, as part of their life's history. Which, as I stated before, may be confusing. I'm fine with them on userpages. Nothaving their own artcles though.
 * 3. Fan characters are getting their own articles. Another no-go.
 * 4. Made up history, and appearances are being created. (IE: Marine cameoing in TDB.) Proof? This is why we must CITE information!

This site is a pathetic excuse for a Wiki. It needs some serious cleaning up!  Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R.  05:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot of the problems with fan fiction being in real character articles is due to a user we used to have called Sonicadventure, who pretty much flooded the site with fanfiction and stuff he made up. I wholeheartedly support cleaning that sort of thing up. ~ FerralMoonrender 08:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If he's responsible for all this, then he should be blocked. Unless he has an excuse. And I was wondering: how do become an admin?<font color="#FF2400">Fair <font color="#FFA500">field <font color="#FF2400">fencer <font color="FF2400">F <font color="#FFA500">F <font color="#FF2400">F  09:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, please, if he isn't already, block him. I will be more than happy to help clean things up, and find sources to cite, so that this can be a better Wiki.  Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R.  19:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, this is good Ferral thankyou for listing to us. <font color="#0000FF">Sonic& <font color="#FF2400">Mario Fan (Pik kid) 15:59, 18 July 2008

Three things: 1) Regarding Sonicadventure, he rarely edits here anymore and in any case he stopped being a problem when Navij11 blocked him for a few days and he learned the hard way that he had to keep his fanfics in his userspace. Some of what he originally did, however, never got cleaned up, so if you see fanfictional information in character histories, etc. please feel free to delete it. 2) If you see entire fanfictional articles, please use this proceedure: Check the history: 3) Please share your opinions on so-called "notable" fan fiction which is written about here, such as the Nazo Unleashed series. Most people said that we shouldn't allow people to write fanfiction here because it might be confused with canon information, but very few people shared their opinions on whether we should write articles about popular fanfics (ex. Such and Such is a fanfiction movie that was created by somebody-or-other...), and/or articles about Sonic community websites. If you want that kind of articles gone too, please be very clear about that, and give a reason. If you support including that kind of articles, please explain how you think we should choose what is notable enough to write about. ~ FerralMoonrender 22:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If it has been edited mainly by one user and looks like a personally created fanfic, such as someone's fancharacter, move it to that user's userspace by clicking "Move" and then typing in the "To new title:" box User:(the creator's username)/(the old title).
 * If it has been edited by multiple people and looks like a discussion please move it to the newly created Fandom forums. Please see the forum page for instructions on how to do that move, since simply clicking the "Move" button won't work.


 * Well, I'll move them into a sandbox for a user if it's just one person. If it's a bunch of people I'll most likely put it in the sandbox for the most recent person who typed it there. I'm fine with the fanfic in sandboxes. I'm doing that on the true Wiki. The site's been cleaned up alot, and I think we're almost done.  Skeletal S.L.J.C.O.A.A.A.T.R.  18:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey. I see I've joined the discussion late. A solution to the problem of fans confusing fanfic content for canon content can be solved with a template at the top of the article, something like, "This article is about a fan-made subject that has not been officially endorced by Sega. While it is canon to the fanfic it originates from, Sega has yet to feature it in one of their creations." We just have to be sure that we don't start using these templates to say which sources (TV, comic, and otherwise) are canon and non-canon. It's going to sound confusing, but here it is: each officially endorced source, such as a TV show, video game, or comic book, is canon to itself if nothing else. The blanket term, "canon," should never be a shortening of, "Canon to the video game series." especially because certain video games such as Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine may or may not be canon to titles like Sonic Adventure. Stumpers 08:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)